Ok. Rules are SOMETIMES meant to be broken. So, Here's the deal. I am 2 weeks post op today. I am one of those who had zero issues and had a smooth ride from recovery room to date!! This post is not intended to mean I am sure I will have a long term good go at this! It also doesn't address the future, but really ONLY the many threads that I have read regarding the preo op and post op liquid diets and the Pre and post few weeks Do's and Dont's!

I have read almost every post on here before and after surgery, lol. Here is the point that I will explain. Your/Our obsession over following diet rules is what got us here in the first place.. isn't it?? I mean, it's great to have black and white rules.. Do's and Don's. can and cant's.. That's why we were ALL great on Atkins (remember the carb counting obsession), and South Beach (remember how carefully we chose the meals), weight watchers, low cal, grapefruit, slimfast , yada yada yada......RIGHT?

Sure, it worked. THEN WE WENT OFF THE WAGON and got sick of the rules and restrictions and put weight back on (and then some).... That's because it was a DIET.. Why do so many of you do that on here? I'm not judging, but trying to help! Yes, it's easier for me, since I have had no issues. I come from a strong medical family (i had bio as a minor,4 docs and 2 nurses in immed family) and I always love to understand WHY the rules are in place. If something doesn't make sense, I want to know why and not just follow a rule because it was put out there.

My surgeon told me that "rules" are on here for the lower end of reaction spectrum. meaning, many need not follow them, but since 30%, for ex, will have issues with some things, they want to make a general rule......

As EVERYONE says on here, as well as EVERY doc, ALL OF US ARE DIFFERENT! We heal differently, We tolerate pain differently, foods differently, weight loss differently, etc..... EVERY SINGLE ONE So, the rules need not be applied to the T!

Now, as a caveat and from feedback so far on this post, this is not an excuse to eat junk NOR stay on bad habits. I don't mean to enable anyone. here is what BUTTERTHEBEAN wrote:

"The only reason I say "enabling" is because I think there are some people waiting in the wings to hear someone tell them it's okay to eat whatever they want. They haven't tackled their food addictions and they are hoping for "permission" to go back to their old ways. I know there are some that can learn to eat "all things in moderation." I have no problem with that. For me, I chose to embrace my inner health nut. It's not fear or weakness or lack of self control...it's the desire to live a long, healthy and active life. I'm not depriving myself, or sacrifing. The things I'm doing and the life I'm leading now feel way better than eating pizza and cupcakes ever did (even in moderation). By that I mean that food did not give me pleasure (never did, I just thought it did), so I no longer look to food to satisfy my needs, except nutritionally."

Ok... Back to the post. Specifically, here is what I have had debunked by my brother (Anesthesiologist for bariatric), My mom (nurse and nutritionist), my bro's good friend and bariatric surgeon, and my surgeon..........

* Yes, the liquid PRE OP diet is not to be messed with. It sucked, but we need the liver to be soft and looking like liver in a supermarket. That will happen in most cases with one week.. Many docs do one week only and many do 2 weeks..... So, if you have a 2 week doc, don't worry if you cheat a little and wants some low calorie food.. It's OK!! have the Soup... etc. I didn't cheat as mine was only a week and I did not want to have a lifetime of liver issues if it was frail and broke a bit/injured while being moved for my surgery....

* Most docs on here POST OP put you on liquids for 2 weeks.. Why?? NOTHING medical. Really? Many docs, including mine, put me on Clear Liquids only day 1 in the hospital and then put me instantly on pureed foods (tuna salad, chicken salad, egg salad, greek yogurts, ricotta cheese, etc).. Yes. DAY 2! He does this for EVERY patient.. He has had NO MORE COMPLICATIONS than anyone else ever.... It is NOT true that eating this will cause a leak.. It can't get caught in you stitches, lol, as they are on the outside and you can't see them even in your stomach.. The ONLY risk is a)that you eat way too much and thus can cause leaks, so don't do that. and that is WAY too much. Meaning you go out of your way to test the limits. As any surgeon will tell you, stretching the stomach to break the staples is no easy task.... easy enough to follow that rule .. and the risk is that you get nauseated.. Ok.. we are all different. Some take 90 minutes the first time they eat to get down 4 oz of chicken salad.. I didn't . I got it down in 15 min and could have done it in 5..... But the point is, listen to your body. start slowly and if you tolerate it, then screw the rules.....

What does this mean? It means so what if you doc put you on 2 week post liquid. That is soo hard.. so, do it mostly, but don't obsess about cheating. have a friggin plate of tuna salad.. It will taste yummy.. Add some great yogurt. If you can handle it, you are good to go! I did.. They also want you on this liquid to max your weight loss for motivation up front? do you really need that?? I don't care if it takes me 1 more week than you to hit the same goal? Frankly, I decided to keep my calories around 800ish anyway for my first 2 weeks. It was a little hard, but nothing like your liquid nightmare and i lost as much weight... I'm now on 1200 cal full diet plan (less hard carbs and hard veggies) as of last night.

I've heard people say they are craving one Dorito chip.. Then the advice replies were "lick the cheese off" or "take a bit and spit it out...." LOL. Really? This is your diet/lifestyle for the rest of your life. HAVE A CHIP.. See if you get a lot of gas.. Chew it well.. If not problem, then enjoy the one chip. You got here because you at a half bag . One or three chips won't kill you! You need to find a way to eat what you will do.. The docs want you to build your healthy habits now.

*The first year is where you get your max weight loss- Ok. For sure,, so, as noted, build your healthy habits now.. but make it last. So, if I want a Dorito chip. I have one or two.. On my pureed phase, my kids had pretzels at a game. I took 2 small ones....I had a qtr of his hotdog meat.. The point is, if we can seriously lower the number of calories we eat (which, for me, they figured i was eating between 3500-4000 per day and needed to be at 2400 or so.. Now, with 1200, which believe me, with the sleeve is a mini feast, I will be eating half the amount and will lose a lot of weight. So, yes, build good eating habits and i'm working on good food choices that I can live with! Can I eat white bread. Damn right?should I// nO?? it's a waste of calories and spikes your sugar and appetite. But, I sure will if i want a hamburger or great sandwich. A month ago i would have had 2 cheeseburgers and 2 hotdogs at a bbq. .So, guess what, i'll lose weight. Can't make it a daily thing.. But, again, stop obsessing..

*Eating and drinking slowly eating- well, you don't HAVE to eat slowly, but as we have been told our whole lives, eat slowly so that when you are really full, you know it! Also, you need to see what your bod can tolerate and if you eat too quickly, you may not have realized you were about to puke. If you can tolerate it, you can eat and drink quicker than others, but not a good idea for reasons mentioned. so work on it, but don't obsess.. At the hospital, they told me I had to drink in in little tiny medical cups a few cc evry 20 min. I laughed, as Water went down easily in recovery even. ALL NURSES TOLD ME NO. When I saw my doc, i asked why I can't just drink as I can tolerate it at home and get my 64 oz is. HE said dont' chug, but do whatever you can do without discomfort. So, 8 oz bottle of water went down in 5 minutes... etc....

*Chewing your food- ALL true... We have that banana sized stomach.. So, the doughy breads, and stringy veggies and large pieces of non chewed enough food INDEED often get stuck! Not stuck like a lap band, but rather, they move toward the pyloric valve and are too big to pass through it, since there isn't as much acid, etc in your stomach and, well, the route to the valve is now MUCH shorter.. So, it sits in front of it and as soon as the next item goes there, it waits in line. your body puts out gas and then knows there is a problem, so will signal you to vomit it up. not fun... So, chew! All true! Also makes us take longer to eat and thus enjoy the tastes more than ever and have the full signal sent to our brain while we are still eating or pretty close to that!

*Caffein is bad... Ok. Google whether it's an appetite suppressant or stimulant.. It's hysterical.. You'll get equal replies from GREAT sources that say the opposite. I WANT my one cup a day. I'm not an addict. I asked. I am now sipping on my first REAL one. It is indeed a diuretic for some. So, drink a half cup more water than a day! If you feel it makes you hungry after you have it and you don't want to hold back, then stop the coffee.. It doesn't for me. It does for some... But what will you be doing in a year from now??/ There is NO medical reason why you can't have caffein after a few weeks

*ALCOHOL is a no no for 2 months. NONSENSE.. Again, just there so we don't put empty calories. BUT what if I WANT one drink or two on a date tonight?? I am told, go for it, but just know you will have ingested 400 wasted calories. Ok. I get it, but I WILL drink in my life, although never drank a ton and that was not the cause of most of my weight.. Watch the calories and don't do it twice most weeks.. Or if you will, then cut back a bit on your Snacks, etc. Anyway, looking forward to a martini with my date tomorrow at dinner.. Oh, most people on here for a while, will tell you since there is less food to bind with alcohol, it goes into your intestines/blood stream much quicker and you get a nice buzz faster with less! way cool!

* Most other rules and comments on here are just not universal and again, if you feel the NEED to cheat, then well, cheat! How can it be cheating if this will be your new life! WOrk hard at right food choices and don't make this soooo hard. The harder you make it, the more YOU WILL revolt and end up going off the wagon like the good old days... Since I have had no pain, etc and pretty much eat what I wanted (and cheated on my puree period even), I feel this is just toooo easy. I hear so many of you struggling (not because you have pain, but because you want to break a rul) and so many of you "supporting them" to stay strong, that I just wanted to add this post! Also, again, much of the medical advice that our well meaning friends on here provide, just isn't true. Sorry, but it isnt.

I hope this helps some of you enjoy your Pre and Post diets much more than you may be now!

Best, my friends!

That's a week and 2 days I've already spoken to my NUT' date=' I'm good. Staying right on with what I'm allowed. Today I've switched to a pre made Atkins shake and I've had half of it with no issues other than a lot of belly noise. Had some Greek yogurt (2.5 oz) and my sleeve is much happier. Fingers crossed the pre made works. Next step will be isopure. (Too expensive at over 5 a bottle)[/quote']

My bad . I somehow missed the week part.

Oh, how I'd love to be one of you "everything in moderation" people. I'm sure it's lovely. But if I'm honest with myself, I'm just not. Sure, when I was only a few weeks or months post-op, I could have a couple of crackers, or a spoonful of Peanut Butter, or half a cookie, and that would be that. But now, with a mature sleeve, I start out having just a little, and I might get away with it once or twice. But, eventually it becomes just a little bit more, and then a little of this, and a little of that, and then I spend several weeks trying to drag myself back on track. I've found that I'm very susceptible to sugar and carbs. When I'm off of them, they're fairly easy to resist. When I've been eating them, I cannot walk away from the stupid cupcakes in the break room with canned frosting that don't even taste particularly good. And when you get to be a year or more post-op, I think you'll discover that a mature sleeve will NOT stop you from eating an entire bag of m&ms.

So, I live a pretty strict life because it makes my life easier. I don't spend my days and nights fighting cravings. I didn't have this surgery so I could eat whatever I want. I had this surgery so I could DO whatever I want, GO wherever I want, have whatever ADVENTURES I want. I had this surgery to be healthy, and strong, and confident. That sure beats the heck out of chocolate cake (ok... most days.... )

By all means, forge your own path and find something that works for you. But be brutally honest with yourself about what REALLY WORKS for you, and what's just slipping back into old habits. Because in the early months the weight will come flying off just about regardless of what you do. Down the road, it gets a lot harder, and there's never an easier time to make a dramatic change in your life than right after surgery - it doesn't get more dramatic than that.

ok so decided since im back at work and they feed us for free and i dont have money if they serve something i can eat i will eat it and take my home lunch back home (makes sense?) i know visually oz and measurements wish me luck

ok so decided since im back at work and they feed us for free and i dont have money if they serve something i can eat i will eat it and take my home lunch back home (makes sense?) i know visually oz and measurements wish me luck

It must be nice to be fed for free at work, but I work in a hospital, and I feel sorry for the patients most of the time.

ok so decided since im back at work and they feed us for free and i dont have money if they serve something i can eat i will eat it and take my home lunch back home (makes sense?) i know visually oz and measurements wish me luck

That's nice that they feed you guys. Where do you work at? Are you feeling better?

i work for marriott. im feeling ok thanks for asking becca. the food sucked i should of took my food with me. it was a red curry chicken and rice pilaf and green beens so i measured out my food. the chicken was so so the green beans i couldnt eat because they were to hard. and the rice omg it had so much oil i almost threw up so i got some black bean soup but was to nauseas to eat that but i got my protien in

I should follow up my post with saying that I still get my Protein in' date=' minimum of 65-75 grams per day, so after that is when I may fit in that special something that I just have a craving for but can't really eat much of. Getting in your protein will prevent you from wanting the junk food. Just dont substitute that pan of brownies in instead of that chicken breast! That is not what my point was and dont think neilsleeve was getting at that either. Point is eat right but dont be afraid to treat yourself in moderation if you can tolerate it.

One of my favorite junk foods is ice cream but over the past 2 weeks, I discovered I can't tolerate it and was sick for a few hours the 2 times I tried it. Tried it once and felt bad, tried it again just to verify it was the ice cream and not something else...sure enough, same results even in moderation. I guess I will hang up the ice cream indulgence for now. Boooooooooooo![/quote']

I am almost three months out on the 24th of this month and down 45 lbs including pre-op. I stalled for three weeks. I consider myself doing well. As for ice cream I was driving down the freeway about two weeks ago and I had to toss it out the window. It was either let it melt or toss it. My stomach was hurting so bad. Milk is my favorite but I seem to only tolerate 1% or fat-free. I eat what I want but so much less. I also get my 3 miles walk per day three to four times a week. I would like to lose 3 to 4 pounds a week but if I only lose 1 or 2 I am ok with that.

One other thing my Doc put me on puree foods on day three but I waited only because I couldn't tolerate it.

Way to lump us all together.

There are other types of people on here as well....those who have severe eating disorders and have not addressed them before surgery. They are not laid back and they certainly are not health nuts. Which way should they be advised to go?

I'm still reading and will post again in a sec, but just wanted to say THANKS I'm in this category and if I wasn't getting very professional help with this then the rather anecdotal info in this thread and others could mess me up even more!!! I certainly know that being "laid back" is NOT as easy as OP suggests! Nor is being "obsessive".

Actually, I would suggest that what OP thinks is what I'm attempting to achieve long term, BUT it's not "the easy way" as another similar thread refers to it.

Moderation and calm-eating can be just as terrifying as anorexia or obsessive compulsive over-eating. In fact, it's more so because it depends on us relinquishing the control over food (and the control it has over us).

Very eloquent response!

Supersweetums I just love your profile pic.....I don't know if I will ever be able to fit into one leg of my old size 18's but it sure feels good so far to see how they just fall off of me :-)

Okay, so a good book on "moderation" is

If Not Dieting, Then What?

by Dr Rick Kausman

This is the theory behind OP's discussion

The book explores how to:

- enjoy food without feeling guilty

- increase your eating awareness

- improve how you feel about yourself

- fit some sort of activity into your day

- achieve and maintain a healthy, comfortable weight for you, without being deprived of food or quality of life.

This is not an advert, but I do recommend this book if you are interested in this topic.

You will find in this book something OP left out: eat when you're hungry, not when you're not. Now one Dorito may be manageable by a person as a treat when they're not hungry. They can enjoy the "taste" (which is what the licking posts are referring to) but aren't consuming it to fill the "void". They can easily stop at one.

That same person, if physically hungry, may end up eating a whole bag because they didn't realise till they tried that chip just how hungry they were.

The same person again may not be physically hungry, but may have "head hunger". They may be snacking because its a certain time of day, they're at a party, they're offered it and don't know how to refuse politely, or it is a trigger food! This is where people usually feel disappointed in themselves for "indulging". They didn't feel deprived in the first place, they just ate because it was there.

So there's a saying that goes "the best tasting bites are the first and the last, so why not just have two bites "

I tend to agree, it's just that practically this isn't always possible for all people.

Finally, I agree with butterthebean that some people may use to sleeve to only change how much they eat, and not what they eat. Many obese ppl actually suffer from malnutrition and this is even worse post-op if this behaviour continues.

Yes, for some, it is great that you're only having half a can of soda, or a small fries instead of a large meal. In Aus the Gov has started an ad coaign in this same vain- "swap it, don't stop it".

But this also refers to the types of foods. If you can try to swap your half can and small chips to fresh fruit juice and a baked potato with sour cream you are getting even healthier.

Or you can stay the same if it stops you backsliding to "even-worse-ville"!

BUT listen to me now please!! Just because your eating healthy-er doesn't mean you're eating healthily! Please try to reassess your eating and exercise habits with a calm and logical approach. This goes to ppl who still only eat 400 calories 2 yrs out and those blending up cheeseburgers and vodka in the hospital parking lot

This is a wonderful place for learning and we all have our own lives and journeys and even if I disagree with you I will always wish you very very well in your life!

This goes to ppl who still only eat 400 calories 2 yrs out and those blending up cheeseburgers and vodka in the hospital parking lot

That brought back memories of a great rant thread that sadly, has disappeared.

And you are right about the malnutrition aspect . I'm in the middle of the book "Why We Get Fat" and it shows a lot of studies of different groups of people who suffer from malnutrition and obesity at the same time.

As many long threads do, this one has meandered here and there. So, indulge me for a second.

I am reminded of 10 years ago when my wife was pregnant with our first child. I was reading as many parenting books as I could, as most nervous, well meaning parents do. I don't recall the exact name or author of the series I read, but the first book, I thought, was great. It had all kinds of advice and information about clinical studies and what the top researchers knew. They had written a second book and I picked it up. In the preface, to summarize, the author wrote:

For those who read my first book. Ignore it. Everything. Throw it all away. I wrote that book before I had kids. Now, I have a two year old and there is no substitute for real life experience ...

He went on explaining the mistakes of his advice and this book took a more general position. It was *real* advice from a professional who had walked the walk.

I kinda feel the same way here. I would like to see if, after a year, Neil's advice and other's pre-op who posted, changes.

Pdxman, even if this advice does (or does not) pan out for Neil or many others, all it takes is for one person to stand up and say "I did this and I made it to goal, therefore it must be true." And there will be others only too happy to jump and cheer because that is exactly what they wanted to hear. (I feel awful typing that last part, but I believe for some it's true)

Will we hear from the ones who try this approach and fail? We already do. Every few days there is a post by someone who is either stalled, or gaining weight, who is also not eating properly or did not follow their docs plan. I have seen several who have turned it around once they reapplied themselves and I salute those people. But what you almost never see are post op patients (one year or more) eating the proper Protein, low starches, sufficient Water and exercise....complaining that they have failed.

Although I say all that humbly considering that people who post here may or may not be representative of ALL Vsg patients.

Yeah ... this ^^^ surely isn't troll behavior is it? And you passed the psych exam? Hmmm ... definately troll.

Guys... You both look grown, so grow up already. Sad to see this type of juvenile behavior on this site. Discouraging to even read.