Ok. Rules are SOMETIMES meant to be broken. So, Here's the deal. I am 2 weeks post op today. I am one of those who had zero issues and had a smooth ride from recovery room to date!! This post is not intended to mean I am sure I will have a long term good go at this! It also doesn't address the future, but really ONLY the many threads that I have read regarding the preo op and post op liquid diets and the Pre and post few weeks Do's and Dont's!

I have read almost every post on here before and after surgery, lol. Here is the point that I will explain. Your/Our obsession over following diet rules is what got us here in the first place.. isn't it?? I mean, it's great to have black and white rules.. Do's and Don's. can and cant's.. That's why we were ALL great on Atkins (remember the carb counting obsession), and South Beach (remember how carefully we chose the meals), weight watchers, low cal, grapefruit, slimfast , yada yada yada......RIGHT?

Sure, it worked. THEN WE WENT OFF THE WAGON and got sick of the rules and restrictions and put weight back on (and then some).... That's because it was a DIET.. Why do so many of you do that on here? I'm not judging, but trying to help! Yes, it's easier for me, since I have had no issues. I come from a strong medical family (i had bio as a minor,4 docs and 2 nurses in immed family) and I always love to understand WHY the rules are in place. If something doesn't make sense, I want to know why and not just follow a rule because it was put out there.

My surgeon told me that "rules" are on here for the lower end of reaction spectrum. meaning, many need not follow them, but since 30%, for ex, will have issues with some things, they want to make a general rule......

As EVERYONE says on here, as well as EVERY doc, ALL OF US ARE DIFFERENT! We heal differently, We tolerate pain differently, foods differently, weight loss differently, etc..... EVERY SINGLE ONE So, the rules need not be applied to the T!

Now, as a caveat and from feedback so far on this post, this is not an excuse to eat junk NOR stay on bad habits. I don't mean to enable anyone. here is what BUTTERTHEBEAN wrote:

"The only reason I say "enabling" is because I think there are some people waiting in the wings to hear someone tell them it's okay to eat whatever they want. They haven't tackled their food addictions and they are hoping for "permission" to go back to their old ways. I know there are some that can learn to eat "all things in moderation." I have no problem with that. For me, I chose to embrace my inner health nut. It's not fear or weakness or lack of self control...it's the desire to live a long, healthy and active life. I'm not depriving myself, or sacrifing. The things I'm doing and the life I'm leading now feel way better than eating pizza and cupcakes ever did (even in moderation). By that I mean that food did not give me pleasure (never did, I just thought it did), so I no longer look to food to satisfy my needs, except nutritionally."

Ok... Back to the post. Specifically, here is what I have had debunked by my brother (Anesthesiologist for bariatric), My mom (nurse and nutritionist), my bro's good friend and bariatric surgeon, and my surgeon..........

* Yes, the liquid PRE OP diet is not to be messed with. It sucked, but we need the liver to be soft and looking like liver in a supermarket. That will happen in most cases with one week.. Many docs do one week only and many do 2 weeks..... So, if you have a 2 week doc, don't worry if you cheat a little and wants some low calorie food.. It's OK!! have the Soup... etc. I didn't cheat as mine was only a week and I did not want to have a lifetime of liver issues if it was frail and broke a bit/injured while being moved for my surgery....

* Most docs on here POST OP put you on liquids for 2 weeks.. Why?? NOTHING medical. Really? Many docs, including mine, put me on Clear Liquids only day 1 in the hospital and then put me instantly on pureed foods (tuna salad, chicken salad, egg salad, greek yogurts, ricotta cheese, etc).. Yes. DAY 2! He does this for EVERY patient.. He has had NO MORE COMPLICATIONS than anyone else ever.... It is NOT true that eating this will cause a leak.. It can't get caught in you stitches, lol, as they are on the outside and you can't see them even in your stomach.. The ONLY risk is a)that you eat way too much and thus can cause leaks, so don't do that. and that is WAY too much. Meaning you go out of your way to test the limits. As any surgeon will tell you, stretching the stomach to break the staples is no easy task.... easy enough to follow that rule .. and the risk is that you get nauseated.. Ok.. we are all different. Some take 90 minutes the first time they eat to get down 4 oz of chicken salad.. I didn't . I got it down in 15 min and could have done it in 5..... But the point is, listen to your body. start slowly and if you tolerate it, then screw the rules.....

What does this mean? It means so what if you doc put you on 2 week post liquid. That is soo hard.. so, do it mostly, but don't obsess about cheating. have a friggin plate of tuna salad.. It will taste yummy.. Add some great yogurt. If you can handle it, you are good to go! I did.. They also want you on this liquid to max your weight loss for motivation up front? do you really need that?? I don't care if it takes me 1 more week than you to hit the same goal? Frankly, I decided to keep my calories around 800ish anyway for my first 2 weeks. It was a little hard, but nothing like your liquid nightmare and i lost as much weight... I'm now on 1200 cal full diet plan (less hard carbs and hard veggies) as of last night.

I've heard people say they are craving one Dorito chip.. Then the advice replies were "lick the cheese off" or "take a bit and spit it out...." LOL. Really? This is your diet/lifestyle for the rest of your life. HAVE A CHIP.. See if you get a lot of gas.. Chew it well.. If not problem, then enjoy the one chip. You got here because you at a half bag . One or three chips won't kill you! You need to find a way to eat what you will do.. The docs want you to build your healthy habits now.

*The first year is where you get your max weight loss- Ok. For sure,, so, as noted, build your healthy habits now.. but make it last. So, if I want a Dorito chip. I have one or two.. On my pureed phase, my kids had pretzels at a game. I took 2 small ones....I had a qtr of his hotdog meat.. The point is, if we can seriously lower the number of calories we eat (which, for me, they figured i was eating between 3500-4000 per day and needed to be at 2400 or so.. Now, with 1200, which believe me, with the sleeve is a mini feast, I will be eating half the amount and will lose a lot of weight. So, yes, build good eating habits and i'm working on good food choices that I can live with! Can I eat white bread. Damn right?should I// nO?? it's a waste of calories and spikes your sugar and appetite. But, I sure will if i want a hamburger or great sandwich. A month ago i would have had 2 cheeseburgers and 2 hotdogs at a bbq. .So, guess what, i'll lose weight. Can't make it a daily thing.. But, again, stop obsessing..

*Eating and drinking slowly eating- well, you don't HAVE to eat slowly, but as we have been told our whole lives, eat slowly so that when you are really full, you know it! Also, you need to see what your bod can tolerate and if you eat too quickly, you may not have realized you were about to puke. If you can tolerate it, you can eat and drink quicker than others, but not a good idea for reasons mentioned. so work on it, but don't obsess.. At the hospital, they told me I had to drink in in little tiny medical cups a few cc evry 20 min. I laughed, as Water went down easily in recovery even. ALL NURSES TOLD ME NO. When I saw my doc, i asked why I can't just drink as I can tolerate it at home and get my 64 oz is. HE said dont' chug, but do whatever you can do without discomfort. So, 8 oz bottle of water went down in 5 minutes... etc....

*Chewing your food- ALL true... We have that banana sized stomach.. So, the doughy breads, and stringy veggies and large pieces of non chewed enough food INDEED often get stuck! Not stuck like a lap band, but rather, they move toward the pyloric valve and are too big to pass through it, since there isn't as much acid, etc in your stomach and, well, the route to the valve is now MUCH shorter.. So, it sits in front of it and as soon as the next item goes there, it waits in line. your body puts out gas and then knows there is a problem, so will signal you to vomit it up. not fun... So, chew! All true! Also makes us take longer to eat and thus enjoy the tastes more than ever and have the full signal sent to our brain while we are still eating or pretty close to that!

*Caffein is bad... Ok. Google whether it's an appetite suppressant or stimulant.. It's hysterical.. You'll get equal replies from GREAT sources that say the opposite. I WANT my one cup a day. I'm not an addict. I asked. I am now sipping on my first REAL one. It is indeed a diuretic for some. So, drink a half cup more water than a day! If you feel it makes you hungry after you have it and you don't want to hold back, then stop the coffee.. It doesn't for me. It does for some... But what will you be doing in a year from now??/ There is NO medical reason why you can't have caffein after a few weeks

*ALCOHOL is a no no for 2 months. NONSENSE.. Again, just there so we don't put empty calories. BUT what if I WANT one drink or two on a date tonight?? I am told, go for it, but just know you will have ingested 400 wasted calories. Ok. I get it, but I WILL drink in my life, although never drank a ton and that was not the cause of most of my weight.. Watch the calories and don't do it twice most weeks.. Or if you will, then cut back a bit on your Snacks, etc. Anyway, looking forward to a martini with my date tomorrow at dinner.. Oh, most people on here for a while, will tell you since there is less food to bind with alcohol, it goes into your intestines/blood stream much quicker and you get a nice buzz faster with less! way cool!

* Most other rules and comments on here are just not universal and again, if you feel the NEED to cheat, then well, cheat! How can it be cheating if this will be your new life! WOrk hard at right food choices and don't make this soooo hard. The harder you make it, the more YOU WILL revolt and end up going off the wagon like the good old days... Since I have had no pain, etc and pretty much eat what I wanted (and cheated on my puree period even), I feel this is just toooo easy. I hear so many of you struggling (not because you have pain, but because you want to break a rul) and so many of you "supporting them" to stay strong, that I just wanted to add this post! Also, again, much of the medical advice that our well meaning friends on here provide, just isn't true. Sorry, but it isnt.

I hope this helps some of you enjoy your Pre and Post diets much more than you may be now!

Best, my friends!

Umm, I'd like to make an observation here.

I've noticed that there just doesn't seem to be any long term (over 1 year) success stories from people who start out not making a major dietary & lifestyle changes.

The thing you have to realize is over time some bad habits are going to creep back into our daily life. And nobody is going to stay as vigilant as we start off.

This is where the major difference comes in. If you start off with "I'm just going to eat less" and over time you become less focused, where does that leave you? Conversely if you make radical lifestyle & dietary changes, and over time you also lose some focus, where does that leave you.

Consider it this way. If you couldn't swim and were going out on a boat that has proven to be less than seaworthy, would you not take a lifejacket?

So I have read through all the posts on here' date=' and I agree on some and disagree on others. I am getting close to my 2 yr anniversary, so I am not sure if that allocates me as a veteran, but I do think have a more experience than some.

[/quote']

You certainly qualify as a veteran. Thanks for your input.

Stepping in line for the lifejacket.

So I have read through all the posts on here' date=' and I agree on some and disagree on others. I am getting close to my 2 yr anniversary, so I am not sure if that allocates me as a veteran, but I do think have a more experience than some.

Here is my take. The rules are there to help people develop new habits. I used my first 6 months to develop new eating habits that I could live with. Did you read that part, that I could LIVE with. I do worry about some of the people on here that go to absolute extremes with post-op diet, obsessing over every calorie, carb or Protein gram that passes their lips. Neilsleeve, you are correct in that. We were all good at diets, but diets are not something that you can live with forever. I never counted or weighed anything. BUT, I did use that time, like I said, to form a new routine, a new way of looking at food, and a new way of eating.

I think telling people to go out and eat whatever they want is not good advice. Like ButtertheBean said, there are the people out there that have not dealt with their issues and are just waiting for someone to say it is ok to eat a chip. I don't think people can go into this surgery expecting to not change a single thing and have a positive result. Sure, you will lose weight. Will you reach your goal, maybe, maybe not. Will you be able to maintain, chances are probably not. The further out you are, the more you can eat. And trust me, although it is nothing compared to what a person could eat pre-op, if you aren't careful, you can eat a substantial amount. And if you continue to eat foods that are unhealthy, you are going to be in trouble. How do I know, I have seen it. I have seen others that have went through the same program that I have. They have not changed anything. Eating chips and crackers, eating fries everyday and justifying it by saying, well, I can just eat a little. And some of those people have lost the weight, only to start to regain. Maybe not the 100lbs that they lost, but all of a sudden they have put 20 or 30 lbs back on, which is harder to lose 2 years out than 2 months out. It takes 1 year to form a new habit, take the first post op year to form yours.

I do completely agree with the obsessing. Now, you have to do what works for you. But, cutting out complete food groups or going to eating extremes does not form a healthy relationship with food nor do I think that it is sustainable for the long term. If I like Bananas and I post a recipe with Bananas, I am not asking you to come on here and preach to me about how "fattening" bananas are. Do they have carbs? Yes. Are they higher in calories than other fruits? Yes. Are they unhealthy? No. If your world is consumed by every morsel you are putting in your mouth, you are going to be miserable. Like I said, I have never counted anything, and I have never dieted. But I also know my trigger foods and do not keep them in my house. Does that mean I never have anything that would be classed as a treat? Hell no! I have ice cream, I have chocolate, and I have chips. They key is, I only have small amounts and I do not have them often. The key here is healthy, lifelong changes, not diets.

The last point I would like to make, and sorry for the long post, but it was touched on, is the guilt and shame around food. We have spent our whole lives feeling guilty and made to feel bad about what we eat. It creates a vicious cycle of eating something we think we shouldn't, feeling guilty and beating ourselves up, and then eating more to shove down the pain of the guilt. The sleeve is an opportunity to develop a healthy relationship with food. And it is not easy. There are days that I still struggle. But I have worked very hard at putting those feelings in their place. If I have a few chips, should I feel bad about it. No? If I eat half a bag of chips, should I feel bad? Equally, no. Learn from it and use it as a chance to change. Tomorrow is a new day and use that new day to make better choices. Let's stop beating ourselves up and berating ourselves every day. I am not going to let food define who I am anymore.[/quote']

Amen

@butter I stick to my original post. I am not lumping...

I wasn't referring to you when I made the reply about lumping. That was someone else. We are good.

While I don't agree with everything you said, I do agree with your sentiment about obsessing and I appreciate your willingness to speak your mind and not make it personal when things get heated.

We need more people around here who aren't scared of a healthy debate. I hope you stick around. Your outlook on things will likely change in a few months. In what way I cannot say, but for me the more I read this forum the more my view of obesity and weight loss surgery has changed. I thought everyone here was in the same boat as me, now I know we are all not even in the same ocean.

It seems that there are two major groups on this forum. Those who get the sleeve and use the tool to eat less and loose weight and those who get the sleeve to kick off a new life of healthly eating, exersice, Protein shakes and basicly a totally new life. The first group, in which I belong, is a little more laid back, we are going to incorporate birthday cake and margaritas. I would love it if the group of "Sleeve life changer- health nuts" would give us "Laid back sleevers" a break and not accuse of us of being trolls, or giving bad advice. We have a different lifestyle, it is okay not to be just like you, I promise. There needs to be room for both types of people on this forum. When I first started reading I thought the only people on here were health fanatics, I am glad to see there are people who are not running 5k's and drinking Protein Shakes 4 weeks out.

Just wow on that one lol.

Chiming in on this after just coming off of a month long stall which began the very day that we brought a big mess of the foods we used to eat into the house for our 16 yo's birthday and visiting out of town guests. We had a few slices of birthday cake, croutons, and baked potaotoes over the course of a week - I know nothing major right - let me tell you how insulin resistant my husband and I are (he also had a vsg two weeks before my own) those carbs instantly set off a cascade of old addictive responses and cravings that took two weeks to dampen down.

When I eat stuff like that all I can think of is food.

When I eat those foods, my losses stop - and the cycle of negativity once again rears its ugly head - that I am a failure, that I am weak.

The key is balance.

When I eat the way my nutritionist and surgeon advise to - I no longer feel those cravings and am fueling my body in a healthy and nutrient dense manner. I simply feel better and I am also changing my body chemistry - because we are not really designed to eat the crap that the food industry makes billions on, and destroys our health in the process. Take a look at Gary Taubes or David Kessler's work - or Paleo and primal sites.Very enlightening.

Lumping the fine group of folks here into two camps is utterly ridiculous - we all come here for information, insight, and support and have a wide range of experiences. I know that I have tried to model Tiffykins - someone who eats quite normally now - but was strict during the losing phase - there is a reason that this first 6 months to a year is referred to as the honeymoon phase.

I wasn't referring to you when I made the reply about lumping. That was someone else. We are good.

While I don't agree with everything you said' date=' I do agree with your sentiment about obsessing and I appreciate your willingness to speak your mind and not make it personal when things get heated.

We need more people around here who aren't scared of a healthy debate. I hope you stick around. Your outlook on things will likely change in a few months. In what way I cannot say, but for me the more I read this forum the more my view of obesity and weight loss surgery has changed. I thought everyone here was in the same boat as me, now I know we are all not even in the same ocean.[/quote']

How boring it would be if we were all in the same boat, BTB!

And a healthy debate is good and kudos to OP for sticking around and sticking to his convictions w/o slinging mud. There are some posts on here....whew....can curl your toes!

OP, I really look forward to you sticking around and posting in other topics. While I don't agree with your statements about eating freely, I totally agree in the statement 'agree to disagree.'

And I really do wish you well in this crazy trip we are all on! The ups and downs, successes and stalls are celebrated and supported by all around here, even when we disagree!

Yes, Debates are great and we are on here for different views.. If someone wants to do what I said, but unsure if anyone has done it, then perhaps they'll enjoy this thread. I never sling mud when people are nice and smart and have things in common. We all have the latter. The only "heated" part is when someone who was insulted that not everyone agrees with their ways, had to call me full of SH)##@ and say I am a troll, on here to just say crazy stuff to make people irate.. That's insane and not appreciated, hence my sarcasm.. But, yes, all good stuff here!

I agree - I enjoy a healthy debate, it is good to discuss these topics because they are issues that we all deal with everyday.

I know for myself that getting to my goal weight is VERY important - and when i started I had 188 excess lbs to lose, that is quite a journey so I need to be serious and I need to be brutally honest with myself in regards to my food consumtion, its nutitional value, Water, Vitamins, exercise etc. If I am not I will not get to where I want to be - i am getting too old to keep farting around with this dance with the food.

I am human and am always stumbling at this but hopefully I will reach that elusive goal.

I myself am addicted to substances that are crunchy and savory so I cannot keep them in the house - that is one of the things that has contributed to my success. ice cream i could care less - so, know your demons and work with them accordingly

Wow, this is by far one of the more interesting threads I've read on this site. There are parts of many posts that I both agree and disagree with. One thing that I think has to be remembered is that each surgeon develops their own plan based on their experiences with patients and perhaps those of their peers - with whom they agree.

Much like classes in elementary school, the curriculum has to be developed to address the most common group of students. Just as teachers can't be expected to develop a curriculum for each student, no surgeon can be expected to develop a plan individualized for each and every patient. The surgeon must take into account the typical, average patient. Seeking to maximize the results for that group of patients. There will always be those above, and those below, the curve.

There is an issue of liability here as well. If a surgeon has a plan that pretty much allows for a "free-for-all" post-op diet, then if/when something happens to Patient X, who reacts poorly to eating a meatball or whatever, the surgeon has a certain culpability. Designing a post-op plan that is conservative and gradually introduces new food and new textures is the proper thing to do. That is proven to work best for the majority of patients. Yes, some will do OK with more aggressively adding foods and textures; others will take longer to adapt to that.

Speaking only for myself, I find the post-op plan (I refuse to call it a diet!) from my surgeon to be one of the more conservative out there. And for that I am grateful. I want to be successful and to give this new tool I've been given every chance at succeeding. If that means I go for another week or two or more without giving in to a craving or temptation, so be it. I have the rest of my life to have a few bites of pizza or to eat a turkey burger or nosh on a bit of birthday cake. For now, I want to concentrate on learning new habits that I can incorporate into a life-long lifestyle change. A lifestyle that will eventually include a margarita now and again, eating out with friends, etc. A lifestyle that will include a permanent weight loss, something I've not achieved previously.

I wish everyone luck on their individual journey. Discovering what works, and what doesn't, for each of us is part of the journey we are on. We just have to respect that each person's journey is down a slightly different path.

Sorry for the lengthy post - you can tell that like others I feel very passionate about this whole new experience

It seems that there are two major groups on this forum. Those who get the sleeve and use the tool to eat less and loose weight and those who get the sleeve to kick off a new life of healthly eating, exersice, Protein shakes and basicly a totally new life. The first group, in which I belong, is a little more laid back, we are going to incorporate birthday cake and margaritas. I would love it if the group of "Sleeve life changer- health nuts" would give us "Laid back sleevers" a break and not accuse of us of being trolls, or giving bad advice. We have a different lifestyle, it is okay not to be just like you, I promise. There needs to be room for both types of people on this forum. When I first started reading I thought the only people on here were health fanatics, I am glad to see there are people who are not running 5k's and drinking protein shakes 4 weeks out.

Wow, is that how you have interpreted my post? Or my posts on other threads?

My intent on this board is two-fold. To learn other people's experiences and to share mine. Nothing more.

I don't want anyone to turn into a health nut or go out and run a 5K, if they don't want to. I don't want you to be like me. I want everyone, whether pre or post sleeve, to have the best information they can to fulfill their goals. Some people are looking to only cut back on the quantity of food they eat, as is evidenced by the post asking, "I'm three days post-op, what can I order at Dairy Queen?" While that did make me go, "WOW", it is their choice and their own personal goals. That is fine. Other people are looking to change their lives completely. That is also their choice. I try to share my experience and answer whatever questions are posted honestly as I can. Have I avoided judging people on here? I'd like to say, "No", but alas, I know I, too, have been guilty. I'm human. I am trying to improve myself.

But, look at the threads. Not just the ones posted in the past day or week. The OP says they have read ALL the threads (tongue in cheek, I know) in pre- and post-, which would encompass thousands of threads. If even 10% were read, you would see the common topic of people sliming, throwing up, in terrible pain.

What would you suggest to them?

"Come on! You're 3 weeks post op. I could eat meatballs by then ... what's your problem?"

Real people are having real problems on here. Real people are researching the sleeve and using this site as a reference. I don't think it is responsible forum membership to give the impression that you don't have to follow your Drs guidelines. No matter what your goals are.

That is the jist of I interpret from this thread. Now, just know, the OP has edited his posts and the content has changed, but I am not able to follow each of those edits.

BTW, I define a troll as someone who come on a forum and kicks the hornets nest for no other reason that to create a buzz. That may easily apply to me as I do seem to attract controversy at times. But it is funny, I really don't think I am THAT controversial by suggesting you actually follow your Drs guidelines and call out someone who tells people not to worry about them ...

Curious ...

The only "heated" part is when someone who was insulted that not everyone agrees with their ways, had to call me full of SH)##@ and say I am a troll, on here to just say crazy stuff to make people irate.. That's insane and not appreciated, hence my sarcasm.. But, yes, all good stuff here!

At no time did I say you were full of SH)##@. As a matter of fact, if you read my first post, I said I agreed with you, so, uh ...

What I disagreed with was that people don't need to follow their Drs guidelines. I just don't agree.

I put myself in the shoes of someone researching the sleeve, coming on here, reading and thinking, "Oh, I really don't have to do purees post-op, then. Cool!" Then, they get the sleeve, do their own thing and get in trouble.

This is the person I worry about most when I read this thread.

So when I read these comments I feel like y'all are saying I'm going to fail.

These foods you're talking about eating in moderation, I no longer crave.

I'm truly asking here, is there no chance for success for someone who has fallen out of love with all those unhealthy foods, and just wants to eat Proteins and green veggies?

If you can fall out of love, you can fall in love again.

My guess is most of us will face challenges again down the road. It took me several tries in my 20s of trying to quit smoking to finally be fully successful and kick it forever.

I don't think success is impossible, I think PERFECTION is impossible. And when we think perfection is the goal then we risk ruining the whole thing over a few mistakes. If we get used to making and managing imperfect decisions as part of the path to success, that one bump wont be a sinkhole.

But, just my opine. We should all check back in 2-3 years and see who is wrong. And then make them cry.

Don't bother posting unless you agree with the op because he only goes back and changes ALL his posts and comments.

That is deceitful and shows your character.

You are editing your entire posts and responses. Much more then adding a disclaimer or quotes from other posters. Unbelievable

Smh

U guys are hysterical. I added one quote from someone in this thread and added a two sentence preface/disclaimer for those like u who don't get it. Backtracked? Lol. No words? That's funny