who supports right to choose

[ELENATION 0]

I agree it can be unhealthy to dwell on the horrific things human beings do to one another, but we also can't bury our heads in the sand -- especially when it's something that is done willfully and "legally". The reason so many women suffer emotionally and psychologically after abortion is precisely because they don't know the facts about the development of the unborn baby.

There is nothing extreme about what was found behind this particular abortion clinic dumpster. It is simply evidence of what happens every day in every abortion clinic in America. It is an example of bad behavior done by bad people, but it is neither extreme nor unusual. It is reality.

Well, I agree, those are horrific things human being do to one another.. I've watched the video that you posted above, and I've watched a video of an actual abortion and a partial birth abortion, it's so hard to watch, so extremely hard... you are right that many people are not completely aware of the development of the unborn baby, and for so many reasons I don't judge women that have had an abortion, it's wrong in my heart, but I'm not God to judge, now, if anyone watches an abortion video, I don't know who is more diabolical, people actually performing this procedure, or people defending it even after they see the truth of it? if I'm making any sense now...

[L8BloomR 1]

Well, I agree, those are horrific things human being do to one another.. I've watched the video that you posted above, and I've watched a video of an actual abortion and a partial birth abortion, it's so hard to watch, so extremely hard... you are right that many people are not completely aware of the development of the unborn baby, and for so many reasons I don't judge women that have had an abortion, it's wrong in my heart, but I'm not God to judge, now, if anyone watches an abortion video, I don't know who is more diabolical, people actually performing this procedure, or people defending it even after they see the truth of it? if I'm making any sense now...

You made perfect sense, Elenation. You and Gadgetlady hit the nail on the head...we can't pretend that something isn't happening just because it hurts to think about it.

[ELENATION 0]

You made perfect sense, Elenation. You and Gadgetlady hit the nail on the head...we can't pretend that something isn't happening just because it hurts to think about it.

Yeah, we must be informed even when it hurts, sometimes I watch programs showing what St Jude Hospital does and I promise you that I sit there and cry , cry so hard when I see those children sick and suffering, but at the same time, it made me pick up the phone and make my monthly donation, same when I've watched "save the children" it's so hard to watch and I want to change the channel, but if I watch it long enough, I just can't help but to do something about it, even if it's just a little donation, but I feel like if I ignore it, I'm just giving up on it.... same with the abortion, when I watched those videos, if I was convinced that it was wrong before, after watching them, I just couldn't even imagine the idea of considering abortion, or supporting the idea, even if some believe that it's a woman's right, when you actually watch it, you can see in front of your eyes that it's murder...I know that sounds dramatic, but really, it's not, what happens to the unborn baby is just horrible and if I was to say that I don't support abortion, but I support the right to anybody have an abortion, to me it's like saying I don't support murder, but I support the right for people to kill if they want to... I just can't do it...

[gadgetlady 4]

now, if anyone watches an abortion video, I don't know who is more diabolical, people actually performing this procedure, or people defending it even after they see the truth of it?

Good question. And do we excuse them if the feign ignorance? I have a tremendous amount of compassion for mothers who are lied to about the development of their babies, are in a crisis situation, and who are told that abortion is the easy way out. I don't have any compassion for those who know the facts and turn their heads.

When former abortionists are interviewed about why they stopped performing abortions, many of them talk about how numb they became looking at little body parts. One former abortionist talks about the irony of how he was killing babies every day at work, and he and his wife were trying to adopt. The turnaround came for him when his little adopted daughter was hit and killed by a car. He then realized that he was doing to the mothers (who were his "patients") exactly what the car driver had done to him and his wife: killing their children. He stopped doing abortions. You can find out more at: Meet the Abortion Providers

[ELENATION 0]

Good question. And do we excuse them if the feign ignorance? I have a tremendous amount of compassion for mothers who are lied to about the development of their babies, are in a crisis situation, and who are told that abortion is the easy way out. I don't have any compassion for those who know the facts and turn their heads.

When former abortionists are interviewed about why they stopped performing abortions, many of them talk about how numb they became looking at little body parts. One former abortionist talks about the irony of how he was killing babies every day at work, and he and his wife were trying to adopt. The turnaround came for him when his little adopted daughter was hit and killed by a car. He then realized that he was doing to the mothers (who were his "patients") exactly what the car driver had done to him and his wife: killing their children. He stopped doing abortions. You can find out more at: Meet the Abortion Providers

THat is exactly right, and perfect example... I most definitely feel much compassion for women who were in a crisis and didn't know better, but after you see it in front of you and you know it in your heart, well... I'm not going to judge, but I would hold that person responsible.

[gadgetlady 4]

Yeah, we must be informed even when it hurts,

{. . .}

same with the abortion, when I watched those videos, if I was convinced that it was wrong before, after watching them, I just couldn't even imagine the idea of considering abortion, or supporting the idea, even if some believe that it's a woman's right, when you actually watch it, you can see in front of your eyes that it's murder.

I was just at a retreat where the issue of offering ultrasounds to abortion-minded mothers was discussed. Turns out, when abortion-minded mothers are shown ultrasounds of their unborn babies, 90% of them change their minds and decide to carry their babies to term. NINETY PERCENT, no joke. Seeing the development of the unborn baby in the womb is a powerful thing, even in a blurry ultrasound.

[BJean 16]

L8BloomR: You got my whole point. Yes, if that person had had an opposing view to mine, it would have bothered me more. That was exactly my point. Likewise, if that person had been on your side of the debate, it might not have bothered you nearly as much.

My other point was not to criticize you, but only to point out that it really isn't in the best interests of encouraging people to participate here if we jump on them because we don't like what they post.

gadget I know that you are privy to lots and lots of anti-abortion material (which you so generously share with all of us here), but for the life of me I cannot fathom where you get statistics that are all but impossible to gather data on. I'm referring to your stats that 90% of "abortion-minded" women (does that mean women who are considering abortion, or women who once thought they may consider an abortion?), who are shown ultrasounds change their minds and decide to carry their babies to term. There is no way that you can have that kind of data. You may be privy to data from the practices of a certain amount of doctors who have done controlled studies on a topic like that. But to claim that you know that 90% of abortion minded women change their minds after an ultrasound is so far out that I am astounded to have read it here.

[MrsFlipFlops 2]

BJean- Isn't that what a study does in general, take a certain population that was studied and apply it to the general population? It sounds to me that did a study and 90% of those women studied changed their minds.

I think it's the concept that we should be grasping. Once a person realizes it's a person, they're more apt to change their minds.

[ELENATION 0]

I was just at a retreat where the issue of offering ultrasounds to abortion-minded mothers was discussed. Turns out, when abortion-minded mothers are shown ultrasounds of their unborn babies, 90% of them change their minds and decide to carry their babies to term. NINETY PERCENT, no joke. Seeing the development of the unborn baby in the womb is a powerful thing, even in a blurry ultrasound.

Yes, and I believe it and I've experienced it....I remember when my pregnancy test showed positive and it was great and I was so happy, when I saw my first ultrasound, it added a sense of responsability, a love for that human being growing inside me, it was life altering... so I can definitely believe that seeing the development of the unborn baby is very powerful.

[ELENATION 0]

BJean- Isn't that what a study does in general, take a certain population that was studied and apply it to the general population? It sounds to me that did a study and 90% of those women studied changed their minds.

I think it's the concept that we should be grasping. Once a person realizes it's a person, they're more apt to change their minds.

I think that once you have seen it with your own eyes, you can understand why someone would change her mind... if you look at anybody's ultrasound it's still very significant, but when you look at your own, it is truly life altering in my opinion, then again, maybe I'm thinking that everyone feels like me? I don't know anymore...

Edited March 19, 2008 by ELENATION

[gadgetlady 4]

Wow - I hesitate to post after ELENATION and MrsFlipFlops profound commentaries, but I feel I must. BJean, the 90% number comes from pregnancy counseling centers, where pregnancy testing and counseling are given, but abortion and abortion referrals are not. Women who are "abortion-minded" are women who come into the clinic expecting that, if their pregnancy test is positive, they will choose to abort. Several years ago, Focus on the Family began a program called Option Ultrasound, whereby they assisted PCC's (pregnancy counseling centers) in obtaining an ultrasound machine and the training to go along with it. These PCC's have reported a 90% rate of change in the minds of mothers who were intending to abort if pregnant. After seeing their babies on the ultrasound screen, only 10% continued their plans to abort.

This is actually not a surprising number at all. Abortion clinics regularly use ultrasounds to determine gestational age, to help the abortionist determine where the baby is in the womb so he can properly dismember him/her, and to determine whether any baby parts are left in the womb after the abortion is complete. It's not at all a surprise that, while in an abortion clinic, if a pregnant mother asks to see her ultrasound, she is denied the privilege. Abortionists and staff workers know what happens when a mother sees her unborn baby moving, kicking, heart beating, etc., and it's not good for business.

[ELENATION 0]

Wow - I hesitate to post after ELENATION and MrsFlipFlops profound commentaries, but I feel I must. BJean, the 90% number comes from pregnancy counseling centers, where pregnancy testing and counseling are given, but abortion and abortion referrals are not. Women who are "abortion-minded" are women who come into the clinic expecting that, if their pregnancy test is positive, they will choose to abort. Several years ago, Focus on the Family began a program called Option Ultrasound, whereby they assisted PCC's (pregnancy counseling centers) in obtaining an ultrasound machine and the training to go along with it. These PCC's have reported a 90% rate of change in the minds of mothers who were intending to abort if pregnant. After seeing their babies on the ultrasound screen, only 10% continued their plans to abort.

This is actually not a surprising number at all. Abortion clinics regularly use ultrasounds to determine gestational age, to help the abortionist determine where the baby is in the womb so he can properly dismember him/her, and to determine whether any baby parts are left in the womb after the abortion is complete. It's not at all a surprise that, while in an abortion clinic, if a pregnant mother asks to see her ultrasound, she is denied the privilege. Abortionists and staff workers know what happens when a mother sees her unborn baby moving, kicking, heart beating, etc., and it's not good for business.

I don't find it surprising either, as long as the abortion clinics are legal and running, maybe it should mandatory that they must show an ultrasound to the mother and they must sign a document that they saw it entirely, not that this will solve the problem, but at least it will provide additional information for the mother to make the decision...

[gadgetlady 4]

I don't find it surprising either, as long as the abortion clinics are legal and running, maybe it should mandatory that they must show an ultrasound to the mother and they must sign a document that they saw it entirely, not that this will solve the problem, but at least it will provide additional information for the mother to make the decision...

I am a big believer in informed consent. When pregnant mothers are regularly told their babies are "a blob of tissue" or "a little bit of blood", they are being lied to. Scared, pregnant mothers generally have no idea what's going on in the womb, and they're not told that the baby's heart is already beating, much less any of the other developmental things going on. They jump at the opportunity to "erase" the problem, not knowing what that "eraser" entails. It's a disgrace.

[ELENATION 0]

I am a big believer in informed consent. When pregnant mothers are regularly told their babies are "a blob of tissue" or "a little bit of blood", they are being lied to. Scared, pregnant mothers generally have no idea what's going on in the womb, and they're not told that the baby's heart is already beating, much less any of the other developmental things going on. They jump at the opportunity to "erase" the problem, not knowing what that "eraser" entails. It's a disgrace.

Yes, I agree, I personally didn't know enough about development of the unborn baby when I was younger and specially if you feel in distress at one particular time, it's even easier to make a wrong decision or uninformed decision...

[BJean 16]

If the study is in such a controlled situation, i.e., clinics where they do not counsel that abortion is a reasonable option to an unwanted pregnancy, that couldn't possibly tell the whole story for the majority or 90% of the entire population who faces an unwanted pregnancy.

I have no doubt that your numbers are correct gadget, for that facility. I have no doubt that endoctrination of any kind can and does change the minds of people who are faced with making a huge decision in their lives.

However I have a problem when such a generalization is used to entice people into believing that it is true in 90% of ALL cases where a woman is known to have full knowledge of what a developing fetus looks like in all the various stages of gestation.

I know you all are having a field day encouraging each other and patting each other on the back for the wisdom you're posting here about how bad abortion is for everyone on the planet. So I will bow out now and allow you to flood the space with your links to anti-abortion videos, grisley, bloody scenes and biased statistics all without any interference from me. I know when I'm outnumbered and when it is wiser to just shut up. (I know you didn't tell me specifically to shut up in those words, but I got the point.)