George Bush: Worst American president in history

[BJean 16]

Right back atcha, Betsyjane!

[Carlene 12]

That GW wasn't willing to serve in any real capacity during the Viet Nam or Korean Wars...

I'll give him a pass on Korea. He was about 4 years old when it started, and maybe in second grade when it ended.

[BJean 16]

Ok maybe the Korean WAR ended, but we've had military personnel there since the 50s and we still have people there. Lots of men we knew served in Korea, not in actual combat, but in danger. George W. ain't that much younger than I. Guess the real point is, he didn't really serve ANYWHERE.

[LessThanBaxter 0]

Wow. People here are rather hostile, even for a "Rant and Rave" section, or whatever. I've been a member of four forums prior to this one, and have posted numerous times in sections titled "Trash Talk", and have yet to have seen such biased displays of "information", or such criticisms and generalizations of someone because of their political stance.

I consider myself to be rather moderate in my beliefs, and I try to view each side of an issue before completely making up my mind. Unfortunately, since I'm human, I'm not always true to my word, and my stubborness will occasionally get the best of me.

Anyhoo ... As far as this thread goes:

I think George W. Bush will go down in history as an average President.

Unforeseen circumstances can either make or break a Presidential legacy; some Presidents have gone down in history among the greatest (Abraham Lincoln, for example) due partially to the luck of being in the right place at the right time. I mean, Lincoln's original intentions were to do anything possible to hold the Union together (even if it meant keeping slavery enstated), but when the southern states suddenly seceded from the Union and fired upon Fort Sumter, it began a long journey that would lead him to become a legend of a President. However, on the other hand, some unexpected events can ruin a Presidential legacy (Calvin Coolidge and the Great Depression, for example).

In Bush's case, only time will tell what historians will say about his presidency. The fact of the matter is that Bush acted upon faulty intelligence, and he did so rather hastily. Also, under his tax cuts (which he proposed before 9/11, and followed through upon afterwards), along with the heightened security efforts and forces abroad, the federal deficit has reached an all-time high.

The positive, however, has his administration being credited for removing a ruthless dictator who murdered thousands upon thousands of citizens, as well as the stock market going from a recession just a few years ago, to being the highest in history (the DOW Jones, specifically).

Again, a "what if" situation arises ... "What if" we never got attacked on 9/11? "What if" we never went to war? Would his Presidency had sailed as smoothly as that of Clinton's?

Unfortunately, we'll never know ... But I believe that enough history-altering events have occured in the last 5 years that'll keep him from going down as the worst. Then again, the historians will ultimately be the one to judge. :^P

[barbara465 2]

I, for one, won't have to wait for the historians to give their opinion. He is by far the worst. His approval rating just prior to 9/11 was waning. It was only after 9/11 that Bush's approval rating went up. Predictable in America - when the USA gets attacked we stand together. Only after the newness wore off, only after the shock was over, only after the bodies were removed and recovery was on its way, did we Americans start to look around once more at the Bush Presidency. Then the stark reality hit us!

Here is a president who can't find intelligent, knowing people to be on his staff. Here is a president who must find the last dregs from his father's presidency to guide him. It's pretty sad. Even the brightest star, Colin Powell, couldn't stand to be around the dim light.

Having opinions, voicing them, doesn't make one unpatriotic. The two are not the same thing. Not believing we should be at war doesn't make that person disrespectiful to our armed forces who are serving the will of the president.

[green 6]

I have read and have been very moved by the accounts posted by BJean, Bitter, and Carlene concerning their experiences of the war in Vietnam. I was, as you can see by my age, up and running during those years but as a Canadian my experience of this war was more academic. My country did welcome draft dodgers and deserters from the armed forces during that time.

We now have a new crop of young Americans who are up here in Canada. They come with their wives and young children. These individuals are deserters and their tales of service in Iraq are compelling in their horror. They generally decide to desert while home on leave.

Unfortunately for them our immigration laws have changed and are much more formal and much more stringent. It looks like they will be returned to the United States after they have exhausted the appeals process up here. They are, you see, attempting to use the only immigration loop hole open to them: they are applying to stay here under refugee status. This is the only way that they can avoid returning to their country of origin and being trapped in a two-year beaurocratic process before being allowed to live in Canada.

I am one of the many Canadians who feel badly for these young men.

[green 6]

In the West freedom of speech is guaranteed to us all. How then can the expression of an opinion be viewed as unpatriotic? This is illogical thinking.

[BJean 16]

LessThanBaxter: Thanks for your input. It is good to hear a seemingly rational person go about explaining why they believe George W. isn't as awful as so many of us here do.

I believe you are very correct when you say that historians will have a whole lot to do with how the world perceives President George W. after he's dead and gone. They will probably take a much softer approach than we do - those of us who are actually having to live with his decisions on a daily basis.

I'm trying to look at the big picture, really I am. But I can tell you for sure that the Dow Jones doesn't have a hellofa lot of impact on my personal welfare. Did you get rich yet? That was the one positive thing you said on George's behalf.

As for us spouting disinformation, I'm not sure I follow you there. What biased information has been put forth? Not that there isn't some bias going on, but in the context of "information" I haven't seen anything in print here that isn't true. Generalizations? Well I haven't actually seen that either. Criticism? Yes indeed.

It must feel pretty lousy when you agree with the President's politics and you observe him being trounced so heavily in a forum like this. That's certainly understandable. I don't blame you for wanting to set the record straight as you see it.

You surely can understand why people here are so passionate, can't you?

People who were opposed to Clinton and his behavior in office certainly were extremely passionate about removing him from office. They were certainly passionate about the fact that he displayed a major moral flaw with his womanizing while in office. Lots of folks were passionate and extremely vocal, and that was understandable.

Surely you can, by the same token, understand why those of us who believe that Bush is a corrupt individual and the worst President ever to have served as President, are so passionate about it.

[barbara465 2]

Green, that was my point. Those of us that believe we should not be at war are criticized for that opinion and being unpatriotic. That is the point. Freedom of speech and the right to express your opinions does not mean you won't defend your country. It may be illogical thinking, but people do it everyday. Read this thread. Those of us that have voiced concerns about the war have been tagged unpatriotic.

[GeezerSue 7]

BJEAN...your post hit home and gave me goosebumps. My BIL, an excellent mechanic, was drafted and trained as a medic. He came home from Viet Nam and, as soon as my sister became preggers, it was OBVIOUS that he was a psych casualty.

We found him on a roof with a gun in his mouth. He escaped from the VA Hospital and shoplifted a pack of razors and was slicing his arm up when they found him. There are more stories. He ended up with Electroshock Therapy to kill the memories. They divorced. He became a bit of a veggie for a while. FORTUNATELY for everyone concerned, he relinquished his parental rights and sister's second husband adopted the child.

Those of us who lived through the mess are still suffering in one way or another. Last Sunday, we were looking at photo albums and answering all the "who's this?" questions. "Oh...she's your biological great grandmother."

However, now that Bush has picked up on what the American people are trying to tell him...we can rest safely..because...effective immediately, we are no longer sending iPods or jet skis to North Korea. That's real progress.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6159011.stm

[BJean 16]

My DH has been a true patriot. He works for the government. He adopted my son and has taken care of two casualties of the Viet Nam fiasco.

I appreciate hearing your story too GeezerSue. I haven't thought about these things for years. Those memories were way too painful to live with every day. I've always been able to shut things out and pretend they didn't happen. I adopted that at an early age due to a verbally abusive father and (probably) typical dysfunctional homelife.

Unfortunately my first husband, the Viet Nam vet, was not so well equipped to handle what he saw and did.

Green's post is heart wrenching. I had no idea that some of our servicemen and their families were dealing with a similar scenario today.

I just cannot wrap my mind around the things these families have had to deal with. Probably many of them were regular Americans, serving their country in the National Guard, only to learn that they had to serve full time. And not only were they told they had to serve in a war zone, they have been made to return time and again after they were promised that they had fulfilled their National Guard duty. And this gives a whole new meaning to the derogatory nickname that the regular military gave our National Guardsmen.

[green 6]

You are right, BJean, this situation is heart wrenching. These deserters who are making their way up to Canada are America-loving patriots and soldiers who found themselves broken by their experiences of this war in Iraq. The decision to uproot themselves and their wives and kids and to move to a foreign country did not come easily to them. These are, you must understand, young men with long roots in America. In brief, these kids are less cynical and more patriotic than most of the draft dodgers who came to Canada during the time of the Vietnam war.

And now they are here and it looks as though our government will soon be handing them back to your government. This is a very, very sad business. These young people are seeking asylum and my country will not provide it.

You might be interested to know that while they are here they are being supported by a number of groups: our government, various church and peace groups, and by former draft dodgers who chose to remain here after amnesty was given by your government.

[BJean 16]

Emails all over the 'net are asking for us to pray for our soldiers in Iraq. Let's not forget about our soldiers in Canada. They need our prayers too.

[itsuptome 0]

I am curious Green, are u saying these young men are vets already? they have already been to iraq and went to canada to keep from going back? Sry, im sure I could read back but trying to decorate the house with kids so limited time.

[BJean 16]

Itsuptome: I don't mean to change the subject but I noticed that your long term goal is 115. If you don't mind me asking, how tall are you? I used to weigh 110, but I think that would be an impossible goal for me after all these years of being over 200 lbs.