You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

It seems that the people here who believe that women should not have the right to choose, use their beliefs in God and the Bible to validate their views. Just a guess, but I think Green was addressing that part of this discussion, not directing her comments to one particular individual.

It seems that the people here who believe that women should not have the right to choose, use their beliefs in God and the Bible to validate their views. Just a guess, but I think Green was addressing that part of this discussion, not directing her comments to one particular individual.

Thanks, BJean, I think you are right....

It seems that the people here who believe that women should not have the right to choose, use their beliefs in God and the Bible to validate their views. Just a guess, but I think Green was addressing that part of this discussion, not directing her comments to one particular individual.

Yup, you are exactly right. My comments were not directed at any one individual but at an argument which only resonates with those who share the same set of religious beliefs.

To me it seems unfair that some people view Christians as judgemental just for expressing our beleifs, but when others express their beleifs its just their point of view.

late: I'm not one of those who lumps all Christians in one bunch. There are as many different Christians as there are people. However I was just making an observation about how the yays and nays are sorting out here.

I don't think for one minute that the people here who are for women's right to choose will sway any of those here who are not. My only hope in posting here is to try to speak up on behalf of women who believe it is within their rights as American citizens to have the freedom to decide for themselves whether they will have an abortion or not.

It has been shown time and again that getting into a slug fest over who is a good person or a bad person, over who believes what, or when life begins, is a huge waste of time. I believe that the question boils down to whether or not we believe that American women have the right to control what happens to their bodies, medically speaking, in every single way. Nobody should have the right to tell another person that they should or should not have a particular medical procedure performed on them, no matter what the circumstances are.

That is not to say that I believe that abortion is good or bad. Abortion is not a judgement that I can make for any other person, only for myself. And I believe that no other person should be able to make that decision for me, no matter what they believe.

To me it seems unfair that some people view Christians as judgemental just for expressing our beleifs, but when others express their beleifs its just their point of view.

What I have always intended to emphasize is that the Christian point of view is not the only point of view and that for many folk this view may be viewed as an errant point of view. There are other areas of the globe where other belief systems carry the same weight as the Christian point of view does in your part of the world. It strikes me that when you make the argument against the right to chose and you choose to base this upon a specific set of religious beliefs you are disqualifying yourselves from being heard by all individuals who do not subscribe to the same set of beliefs.

Certainly Christians have the right to express their point of view. Arguably Hindus, Shintos, Animists, and atheists then have an equal right to express their points of view. My complaint is that you folk are unwilling to recognise this plurality. That is my only complaint.

What I have always intended to emphasize is that the Christian point of view is not the only point of view and that for many folk this view may be viewed as an errant point of view. There are other areas of the globe where other belief systems carry the same weight as the Christian point of view does in your part of the world. It strikes me that when you make the argument against the right to chose and you choose to base this upon a specific set of religious beliefs you are disqualifying yourselves from being heard by all individuals who do not subscribe to the same set of beliefs.

Certainly Christians have the right to express their point of view. Arguably Hindus, Shintos, Animists, and atheists then have an equal right to express their points of view. My complaint is that you folk are unwilling to recognise this plurality. That is my only complaint.

In a sense I do have sympathy for Christians, because they truly believe that their opinions are supported by The Word of God. It must be very difficult to even allow yourself to contemplate other points of view when you have such beliefs because the very act of doing so constitutes "doubt" in "the Lord."

It is difficult for me to imagine how much pain must be caused to Christians when they truly believe that all human beings who do not accept Christ will burn in Hell for eternity. What an awful burden it must be to carry around that point of view because it clearly involves belief in the inevitability of unspeakable horrors for human beings like Mahatma Gandhi and the Dalai Lama, not to mention the billions of other poor souls who lived their lives in little villages and never even heard of Christ. Christians carry around the belief system that all those human beings will suffer unimaginable horrors, even though this is so clearly cruel and unfair, especially for people who never heard of Christ. What kind of "God" could possibly be that cruel? And what a burden it must be to carry this around and believe in it your whole life because you see it as "The Word of God."

Some Christians will tell you that this way of thinking brings them comfort because they know that THEY will be going to Heaven. But that is nonsense. How can anyone take comfort in the knowledge that they are spared while billions of others suffer. If the world went to war with atomic weapons, who would want to go into little mountain caves and be spared while the rest of humanity burns? That does not seem much like "comfort" to me. And it seems so arrogant to me to even want to be one of the few who is spared while others suffer.

So, I do agree with what you are saying green, but still, I do have sympathy for Christians. To paraphrase the late Anne Richards, because of what they believe, "they can't help it."

You make a good point, Mark. But not all churches believe that they are the only ones going to heaven, just certain well-endoctrinated sects.

Some may take issue with me for using the term "sect" however in the really big picture, even many very large, well established Christian religious groups could be viewed as break away Churches. Christianity and church groups have evolved.

You make a good point, Mark. But not all churches believe that they are the only ones going to heaven, just certain well-endoctrinated sects.

That's a good point. I don't mean to include those. I have nothing at all against anyone based on their own personal beliefs. It's when people branch out in the name of religion and start making judgments and laws that relate to me, that's where I have the problem.

Amen, brother!

Hurrah for Mark! You have an elegant way of making a telling point. Thank you for your wit and wisdom, sez Green.

We all have a belief system; the prism through which we make judgements and form opinions. Whether you choose to believe in a Creator or chose to not believe in one, you are still "believing" something. Why should those of us who believe in God have to stifle ourselves for the sake of those who believe He does not exist, while the non-believers can feel free to "enlighten" the rest of us without question?

I choose to believe in God. It makes me a better person, more balanced and more "other"-oriented. Many of the people I see who do not believe in God believe in things that I think are harmful: the belief that they are the center of the universe; that what they think or what they want is of utmost importance; in having fun at any cost. They make the environment a religion, the pursuit of pleasure their god. It is not up to me to judge them, I would just not want to be them. And I do not want them to judge me. It is the smug and intolerant tone of some of these posts towards Christians or anyone believing in God that I find offensive. Christians are accused of being intolerant but I find it much more obvious coming from the other side.

Why is it so hard to see that to a Christian, abortion is not just about a woman's body? The baby is a separate entity. Different in every way. Just because it needs the womb to "incubate" and grow does not take away its human-ness. Our society absolutely tells people what they can and cannot do with "their" bodies. Not only can we not steal, rape, murder, or yell "Fire!" in a theater, we cannot do some things involving only our own selves: downloading or viewing child pornography, for example. And attempting suicide will get you arrested and institutionalized. Is there anyone here who could see a person holding a razor to their wrist or taking a bottle of pills or poison, and would not try to stop them? If you would, why? Aren't they free to do anything they want with "their own bodies"? If you would try to help them, good for you! You see them as someone about to make a huge and deadly decision based on something currently wrong in their lives. They are about to take a life that has value and meaning, if given a chance to get through the current problem. Exactly the way a pro-life person looks at a woman contemplating abortion....

We all have a belief system; the prism through which we make judgements and form opinions. Whether you choose to believe in a Creator or chose to not believe in one, you are still "believing" something. Why should those of us who believe in God have to stifle ourselves for the sake of those who believe He does not exist, while the non-believers can feel free to "enlighten" the rest of us without question?

I choose to believe in God. It makes me a better person, more balanced and more "other"-oriented. Many of the people I see who do not believe in God believe in things that I think are harmful: the belief that they are the center of the universe; that what they think or what they want is of utmost importance; in having fun at any cost. They make the environment a religion, the pursuit of pleasure their god. It is not up to me to judge them, I would just not want to be them. And I do not want them to judge me. It is the smug and intolerant tone of some of these posts towards Christians or anyone believing in God that I find offensive. Christians are accused of being intolerant but I find it much more obvious coming from the other side.

Why is it so hard to see that to a Christian, abortion is not just about a woman's body? The baby is a separate entity. Different in every way. Just because it needs the womb to "incubate" and grow does not take away its human-ness. Our society absolutely tells people what they can and cannot do with "their" bodies. Not only can we not steal, rape, murder, or yell "Fire!" in a theater, we cannot do some things involving only our own selves: downloading or viewing child pornography, for example. And attempting suicide will get you arrested and institutionalized. Is there anyone here who could see a person holding a razor to their wrist or taking a bottle of pills or poison, and would not try to stop them? If you would, why? Aren't they free to do anything they want with "their own bodies"? If you would try to help them, good for you! You see them as someone about to make a huge and deadly decision based on something currently wrong in their lives. They are about to take a life that has value and meaning, if given a chance to get through the current problem. Exactly the way a pro-life person looks at a woman contemplating abortion....

I can certainly understand your position. We do indeed all have our own belief systems. The Hindus believe that it is a wicked act to eat an animal or even to crush an insect for these creatures are but ourselves, the sole difference being that these individuals are in a different stage of becoming sufficiently mature to meet up with God, the final point of our earthly journeys.

Although I am an atheist our real difference is that I do not believe that the rights of foetus trump that of the host body or, to express this more humanely, the mother. Apart from that and the fact that I find myself unable to believe in a supernatural Being, we really are much the same. Like yourself I am anxious to see that those who live around me live well and I will help them whenever I see that they are suffering. I am also concerned about the larger ethical issues which are currently in play and which may affect the world in which we live. This is why I do a lot of reading up on such matters and this is why I consider that it is important that I engage in the type of discussions which are available here on Rant and Raves. It is just such a fine thing that we are all able to discuss and swap ideas, isn't it?

I certainly do not mean to disrespect you for believing in God and I was sincere when I told you how much I appreciated your account of your own early pregnancy. Indeed, your account touched me very much.

I can certainly see that to a Christian abortion is not just about a woman's body. This makes sense within the framework of your beliefs. What I am saying is that there are other folks who do not share this belief system and to insist upon imposing your beliefs upon the civil framework of a country which was founded upon the vision of a secular and civil democracy, not a theocracy, is simply wrong-headed. This is why I suggest that no Christian be forced to involved him or herself directly in this business of abortion. At the same time you must understand that your religious beliefs are yours and thus must not be allowed to inform public policy.

Although I am an atheist our real difference is that I do not believe that the rights of foetus trump that of the host body or, to express this more humanely, the mother.

This really says it all. The pregnant woman is a mother. She has a child. When a pregnant woman cites as her reason for abortion that she's "not ready to be a mother", she's missed the boat. She ALREADY IS a mother. Her choice is whether she's the mother of a dead baby or a live baby.

We all have a belief system; the prism through which we make judgements and form opinions. Whether you choose to believe in a Creator or chose to not believe in one, you are still "believing" something. Why should those of us who believe in God have to stifle ourselves for the sake of those who believe He does not exist, while the non-believers can feel free to "enlighten" the rest of us without question?

I choose to believe in God. It makes me a better person, more balanced and more "other"-oriented. Many of the people I see who do not believe in God believe in things that I think are harmful: the belief that they are the center of the universe; that what they think or what they want is of utmost importance; in having fun at any cost. They make the environment a religion, the pursuit of pleasure their god. It is not up to me to judge them, I would just not want to be them. And I do not want them to judge me. It is the smug and intolerant tone of some of these posts towards Christians or anyone believing in God that I find offensive. Christians are accused of being intolerant but I find it much more obvious coming from the other side.

Why is it so hard to see that to a Christian, abortion is not just about a woman's body? The baby is a separate entity. Different in every way. Just because it needs the womb to "incubate" and grow does not take away its human-ness. Our society absolutely tells people what they can and cannot do with "their" bodies. Not only can we not steal, rape, murder, or yell "Fire!" in a theater, we cannot do some things involving only our own selves: downloading or viewing child pornography, for example. And attempting suicide will get you arrested and institutionalized. Is there anyone here who could see a person holding a razor to their wrist or taking a bottle of pills or poison, and would not try to stop them? If you would, why? Aren't they free to do anything they want with "their own bodies"? If you would try to help them, good for you! You see them as someone about to make a huge and deadly decision based on something currently wrong in their lives. They are about to take a life that has value and meaning, if given a chance to get through the current problem. Exactly the way a pro-life person looks at a woman contemplating abortion....

I think you have a terrific way of looking at things and, in fact, I actually gree with most of what you say. One thing I agree with completely is that you should definitely not be required to stifle yourself or refrain from expressing your views.

The place where we disagree is that I do not believe you have the right use legislation to force other people to live by your value system. I think you should feel free to do whatever you want to try to educate people to your point of view, or whatever you can do to persuade. I just think that you do not have the right to force people to live by your moral code.

You are complaining that people are trying to stifle you and keep you from expressing your views because you are a Chrsition. But that is absolutely, and obviously, not true. And worse, it's a distraction from the real issue here. The actual fact is, as I'm sure everyone agrees, you should be totally free to express yourself as much as you want to. No one wants to stifle you or restrict your expression, and no one has ever said otherwise. The disagreement comes in when you try to force your views on others through the use of the police power of the state, and try to make other people live their lives the way you believe, no matter how traumatic the consequences are in their lives. That's where the problem is.

I understand that to a Christian, and to many other people for that matter, a fetus is a human life from the time of conception. I respect that view. But in the case of abortion there is also a woman involved. It is not only the fetus that matters. When a woman is carrying an unwanted pregnancy there is definitely going to be a loser. Either the fetus or the pregnant woman is going to lose. If there is an abortion, the fetus obviously loses and many times the woman suffers as well. In the alternative, if the woman is forced to carry an unwanted child to term she will be faced with a series of very difficult, lifechanging choices that can cause incredible pain. It's very easy to say that she can just put the child up for adoption, but this is not nearly as easy as it sounds for many reasons, and many women do not want to do that. Pro-life individuals keep saying over and over again that adoption is the answer. But many women do not agree with that, and they will never agree no matter how many times pro-life people keep saying it. And keeping an unwanted child and trying to take care of it when you are not able to can and often does destroy both lives.

The point is, it is not enough to just point out that in our society you are restricted in certain ways, you can't view child pornography or yell "fire" in a theater, etc. But those situations are not similar to the abortion situation. In those situations restrictions are placed upon one person. In the case of abortion, there are two entities involved, the fetus and the woman. The fate of both is inextricably intertwined. Abortion is a totally unique situation that can't be compared to any other. In the case of an unwanted pregnancy, there is definitely going to be a loser. There is no way to create a law that protects both entities. And many people feel that in this particular unique set of circumstances, it is not for the state/church to force one solution on all no matter what the individual pregnant woman believes.

I think you should feel free to express your views. No one is trying to stifle you in any way. Many of us believe, however, that no matter how strongly you believe that a fetus is a separate human life, in this one unique, highly personal situation involving two entities, you have no right to force your views and your moral choices on others through legislation and use of the police power of the state.