You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

C'mon, BJean, you know that was not what I was saying. Post away to your heart's content. I just don't like to see my words twisted into something else in order to spark debate, and so I responded.

Sorry, BJean, I responded to your first post before I saw the second one. I do appreciate your feelings in the second post. Yes, people in Israel do live in scary times, yet they are so strong and courageous. While I agree that the Christians living there make a good argument for both sides of this issue, I sort of admire the Israeli's strong stance regarding their Jewish heritage. By letting nothing weaken or water that down, they stay united. It is what keeps them together in crisis. When I look on a map and see how truly tiny they are, surrounded by so many large and menacing enemies, I am amazed at their tenacity.

I honestly did think that was what you meant. I thought you were seeing it as a reason for keeping the words in our government docs, etc.

It isn't the first time that I have misunderstood your posts. You've misunderstood mine a time or two also. It happens. Big deal.

I thought we had established earlier that we have a respect for each other even though we don't agree politically. I wouldn't ever put words in your mouth - there is simply no reason to. But I can't help it if I misunderstand your point. I expect you to straighten me out if I do, and I hope that you will, each and every time I take something the wrong way.

Peace out.

OOOPS, our posts crossed again!! :faint:I think I will stop posting now and let them catch up to each other...

Yes, we do respect each other--- no debate there, Bjean!

Funny! I posted before your second post too.

One can certainly understand why the Israeli goverment is so strict about incorporating their religion into all of their decisions and into their way of life. All you have to do is look at their history.

We, on the other hand, have a history of at least saying that we do not discriminate against different religions and that people of all denominations and beliefs are welcome here. Very different from Israel, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, etc.

The reason I like to discuss things with you L8BloomR is because I think you are very intelligent and you make excellent points without insulting others or becoming rude. As different as we think, you sure come close to winning me over every time.

BJean: You are taking a simple comment I made to Green about secular government and turning it into a debate. For instance, I never said that a manger scene was not Christian, or that people come to this country because we used the word "God" in our documents. I merely said that when this country was founded, God was important to most of the principles involved, and they used that belief to create humane rules and laws that were appealing to many people who subsequently decided to come here. I believe that the word "God" in those documents was benign and would not be offensive to any religious person. I discuss "God" with my Jewish and Muslim friends all the time. They are not offended, as we all believe there is only one God, even if we think of Him in our own unique way.

Along that same line, anyone coming to the U.S. probably understands a bit of our history, our Christian roots, etc. Why should a Buddist or Muslim feel offended that we don't share their country's culture? We have a history and a culture of our own that tries to include everyone, but we have to have some core. Can you imagine going to Iran and demanding that they take down their religious symbols because you find them offensive? And my Jewish girlfriend who lives in Israel says that it is against the law to display manger scenes or to hand out Christian bibles. They even arrange their streets so that they don't form a cross! Yet many Christians live there, without anger or making demands. I don't think I am wrong for thinking that our country should be proud of how we started, who we are and what we have accomplished. We are a most inclusive and welcoming country, but we do not have to give up our soul to try to please everyone. As you know, that is impossible.

I have not followed this whole discussion and if I missed something that was said a few posts back I apologize. But I want to make some general comments about the post I am quoting.

The thing that worries me here is that this is basically the argument for prayer in school, and similar things of that nature, which are profoundly offensive to many people. There are places in this country where 95% of the people would vote for prayer in school on the ground "we should be proud of how we started" and "we do not have to give up our soul to try and please everyone." But the thing is, this country is not simply based on majority rule. If a majority of people believe that blacks and whites should not marry, they don't get to make laws reflecting those beliefs. The Constitution protects individual rights against the majority. That's what makes this country so special and so different. The fact that the same is not true in Iran is not an impressive argument.

And nothing could possibly be more individual than religious beliefs, or the lack of them. You say that you discuss "God" with your Jewish and Muslim friends and everyone basically agrees. But there are many people here who are not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. The Constitution protects their rights just as much as the rights of Christians and Jews. You say that "God" in various documents would not offend any "religious" person. But not everyone is religious.

You talk about the religious beliefs of the founders of our country and describe those beliefs as the "core" and "soul" of our country. But not everyone agrees with you. In my view, the "core" and "soul" of our country is our Constitution, which protects individual rights. In my view, that is the core belief that draws most of the world to want to live here, not because the founders were Christians or created a country based on Christian values.

No one debates that the founders of this country were religious. But thankfully they had the wisdom to make the core values of this country be something OTHER THAN their own religious beliefs. They created a Constitution that separates church and state, and protects the rights of the individual.

A really good friend of mine was raped years ago and now has a beutiful young man for a son..why would you kill the child for what his father did? Geri

The reason I like to discuss things with you L8BloomR is because I think you are very intelligent and you make excellent points without insulting others or becoming rude. As different as we think, you sure come close to winning me over every time.

I think that is one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me on this board. Thank you, BJean. Coming from you makes it even nicer.

A really good friend of mine was raped years ago and now has a beutiful young man for a son..why would you kill the child for what his father did? Geri

That is an argument that could persuade some women not to get an abortion. It is a strong argument and I can see your point.

But I also have to say that I don't think it is a reason take the choice away from the woman who was raped and to force her not to have an abortion and keep the child of her rapist. This is an area where the final choice cannot be dictated by the state or the church. It is a personal decision which must be left up to the individual woman.

But I would fully support your efforts to persuade women of your point of view. You make a good argument that might make sense to some women.

Mark: I think the problem in this discussion is that we view some words differently. I think of "Christian values" as universal and good, i.e. kind, helpful, charitable, etc. "Core values" means the same to me. I am not talking about denominations and maybe that is what is troubling you. The founding fathers came from countries that repressed and punished people for their faith. They saw their individual rights, property, fruits of their labors taken from them. Christianity is about the dignity of the individual, and I believe they got their ideas to form a free country from those beliefs.

I appreciate the separation of church and state. I am not suggesting that prayer or a particular religion be forced on anyone. EVER. But the fact is that the Christian values of the earliest Americans helped them make a unique, generous and welcoming country. I can understand that if one does not have a belief in God, it can sound worrisome to hear that. But I think our history has shown that no one is forced to believe in anything. It is also interesting to note that in communist countries the opposite is/was true. Believers were forced to renounce their belief in God or die. The leaders of those countries knew that a person with a strong belief in God could never give over all their allegiance to them. I think maybe the founding fathers knew that also.

Let me reiterate---the word "God" or "Creator" is a benign word. They use it in Alcoholics Anonymous and other self-help groups. It does not imply a religion, or force a belief. I think it is used more as a universal code for "something bigger than ourselves", or "a benevolent force that cares about us." Of course, particular religions view it in their own ways, but I don't think the word should make anyone afraid.

I hope I explained this better than before.... it is such a difficult subject to discuss via the internet. Thanks for your input.

Mark: I think the problem in this discussion is that we view some words differently. I think of "Christian values" as universal and good, i.e. kind, helpful, charitable, etc. "Core values" means the same to me. I am not talking about denominations and maybe that is what is troubling you. The founding fathers came from countries that repressed and punished people for their faith. They saw their individual rights, property, fruits of their labors taken from them. Christianity is about the dignity of the individual, and I believe they got their ideas to form a free country from those beliefs.

I appreciate the separation of church and state. I am not suggesting that prayer or a particular religion be forced on anyone. EVER. But the fact is that the Christian values of the earliest Americans helped them make a unique, generous and welcoming country. I can understand that if one does not have a belief in God, it can sound worrisome to hear that. But I think our history has shown that no one is forced to believe in anything. It is also interesting to note that in communist countries the opposite is/was true. Believers were forced to renounce their belief in God or die. The leaders of those countries knew that a person with a strong belief in God could never give over all their allegiance to them. I think maybe the founding fathers knew that also.

Let me reiterate---the word "God" or "Creator" is a benign word. They use it in Alcoholics Anonymous and other self-help groups. It does not imply a religion, or force a belief. I think it is used more as a universal code for "something bigger than ourselves", or "a benevolent force that cares about us." Of course, particular religions view it in their own ways, but I don't think the word should make anyone afraid.

I hope I explained this better than before.... it is such a difficult subject to discuss via the internet. Thanks for your input.

In my view I also consider the words "God" and "Creator" to be benign and good words. I believe in both in a different form than you do, simply because it is inconceivable to me that the glories and perfection of the universe are entirely accidental and random. Moreover, I also believe that the Christian values of the earliest Americans helped make this a unique, generous and welcoming country. And contributions from other good people did the same. I don't find anything about Christianity to be negative, threatening, or anything to be afraid of.

The ONLY issue I have is that many Christians seem to have a propensity for wanting to force others to live by their moral code. You say that you don't think prayer or a particular religion should ever be forced on anyone. That's great. I appreciate that. But many other "Christians" have a very different view, and they continue to push for prayer in school, the teaching of Creationism in the classroom, and the assertion of physical control over the bodies of others based on religious values. That is what I have a problem with.

So, I am glad to hear that you are not one who is interested in forcing your views on others. I truly appreciate that. But when I see people argue that "we should be proud of how we started" and "we do not have to give up our soul to try and please everyone," the hair goes up on the back of my neck. These are the arguments people use who support prayer in school. I'm glad to hear that you are not using these arguments for such a purpose.

Mark: I think you hit the nail on the head. I honestly have no problem with the use of those words on government buildings and on our money. I am rankled by the extreme right wing in this country telling everyone else how they should live their lives and even worse, that they are wanting to legislate it. :omg:

Thanks for your easy to read and understand post, Mark.

This is my concern as well for although I am an atheist I have no problem with the notion of belief. The country I live in has become a secular one and now is sometimes inclined to carry political correctness to what I believe are idiotic levels.

I will now prove this to you by providing you with a couple of examples. Upon receiving the complaint of a Jewish female judge a Christmas tree which was standing in the lobby of a courthouse in Toronto was removed. Most Torontonians who troubled to write into the newspapers about this were disgusted. Teachers in our public schools are now required to refer to the upcoming Christmas holidays as winter holidays even though these holidays exist because they are folded around the Christmas event.

Such signs of this time of year, the Christmas tree (originally a pagan tradition), the carols, the creches are as much of our cultural tradition as they are specific to Christianity and I think that as such they have a right to exist. I think that they enliven the social environment.

What concerns me is exactly what Mark so nicely stated above, that there are certain Christians who will try to force others to "live by their moral code."

And Green, don't you think that because Christians do all they can to force others to "live by their moral code" people with differing beliefs are scared that if they don't make a stand for separation of church and state, those Christians will one day be able to make it happen.

That makes it a very sorry state of affairs for so many of us who enjoyed the Manger scene in the town square and Christmas trees in schools and all the other things we grew up with, but that are now deemed politically incorrect.