You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

So if someone is raping someone in front of your house, you just close the shutters because God gave the rapist the freedom to make the decision for himself?

No I would not. But with women I know who have had an abortion,now I'm sure this is not true of all women, but from conversations I have had with women I know it goes like this

Person-Damn, I just found out I'm pregnant. What am I gonna do, I can't have this baby. I don't even want a baby.

Me- Why?

person- because there is no way I can have a baby, I can't even take care of myself

me- well, why don't you consider adoption?

person- noway, I'm not carrying it for 9 months and go through labor pains just to give it away.

me-Why not

person-because I don't want to. no.

me- But there's alot of people who can't have kids that would love to have a baby and would take good care of it.

person-Oh well, too bad. they are not getting mine. I told you I am not giving it away,and I don't want one. I wanna do what I want. I don't wanna be tied down with a baby.I like going out to clubs and having fun.

me- Why didn't you use birth control if you didn't want to risk getting pregnant?

person- I know. I should have but i didn't. But, I'm definetley going to next time.I ain't taking anymore risks. It might not even be my boyfriends. I'm not even telling him I'm pregnant. I'm just gonna make an appointment and get it taken care of.

me- You know, pregnancey is not the only risk you take when you are not using condoms to protect yourself.

person- I know ,but ??? is clean. He don't have nothing.

me- Well,your actions are affecting you and other people and could have negative consequences for everyone involved, so you should start being careful because one day you will end up crying.

person- I know, I know

And a year later, 9 out of 10 times later. That person is back in the same situation seeking the same solution. Now, I'm not saying that this is true of all women, because I know that some women do use birth control and are careful not to get pregnant.But clearly, there are women who use abortion as a form of birth control. If you could convince a woman who does not want a baby because she doesn't want to be tied down, to have that baby, now remember, she will not send it for adoption because she "cannot carry it for 9 months and then give it away," how do you think it will be raised. It will probrably grow up knowing it is nothing but an inconvenience and be reminded of the life its mother had to give up because of him or her. Emotional and psychological problems? Most likely. And he might one day end up being that rapist behind those shudders. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is true.

The funniest thing about this thread is the hypocrisy. There are documented cases of pro-lifer's getting abortions. People who like you will undoubtly say, they werent TRUE pro-lifers. Well...apparently they were, until the situation came to them.

Read this: "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" - When the Anti-Choice Choose

The funniest thing about this thread is the hypocrisy. There are documented cases of pro-lifer's getting abortions. People who like you will undoubtly say, they werent TRUE pro-lifers. Well...apparently they were, until the situation came to them.

Read this: "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" - When the Anti-Choice Choose

I totally agree with you.

So if someone is raping someone in front of your house, you just close the shutters because God gave the rapist the freedom to make the decision for himself?

Rape is a crime. A feloney by law. Abortion is a choice, there is no law that prohibits it. So, in answer to youir question: I would call the police and intervene.

Rape is a crime. A feloney by law. Abortion is a choice, there is no law that prohibits it. So, in answer to youir question: I would call the police and intervene.

There are certainly things that are wrong but are not illegal. I just spent the day at the Underground Railroad Museum in Cincinnati (on vacation) delving into the history of slavery in the US. At the time the slaves were risking their lives trying to escape, there were free people who were breaking the law to help them. They were objecting to something that was a "personal choice." I wondered aloud with my children if in 100 years we might have a museum dedicated to the millions of unborn babies we have "exterminated" in this country in the name of "personal choice".

I saw a great bumper sticker while I was here: A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if no one believes it.

No I would not. But with women I know who have had an abortion,now I'm sure this is not true of all women, but from conversations I have had with women I know it goes like this

Person-Damn, I just found out I'm pregnant. What am I gonna do, I can't have this baby. I don't even want a baby.

Me- Why?

person- because there is no way I can have a baby, I can't even take care of myself

me- well, why don't you consider adoption?

person- noway, I'm not carrying it for 9 months and go through labor pains just to give it away.

me-Why not

person-because I don't want to. no.

me- But there's alot of people who can't have kids that would love to have a baby and would take good care of it.

person-Oh well, too bad. they are not getting mine. I told you I am not giving it away,and I don't want one. I wanna do what I want. I don't wanna be tied down with a baby.I like going out to clubs and having fun.

me- Why didn't you use birth control if you didn't want to risk getting pregnant?

person- I know. I should have but i didn't. But, I'm definetley going to next time.I ain't taking anymore risks. It might not even be my boyfriends. I'm not even telling him I'm pregnant. I'm just gonna make an appointment and get it taken care of.

me- You know, pregnancey is not the only risk you take when you are not using condoms to protect yourself.

person- I know ,but ??? is clean. He don't have nothing.

me- Well,your actions are affecting you and other people and could have negative consequences for everyone involved, so you should start being careful because one day you will end up crying.

person- I know, I know

And a year later, 9 out of 10 times later. That person is back in the same situation seeking the same solution. Now, I'm not saying that this is true of all women, because I know that some women do use birth control and are careful not to get pregnant.But clearly, there are women who use abortion as a form of birth control. If you could convince a woman who does not want a baby because she doesn't want to be tied down, to have that baby, now remember, she will not send it for adoption because she "cannot carry it for 9 months and then give it away," how do you think it will be raised. It will probrably grow up knowing it is nothing but an inconvenience and be reminded of the life its mother had to give up because of him or her. Emotional and psychological problems? Most likely. And he might one day end up being that rapist behind those shudders. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is true.

Hahahaha

Pers one: I am in a refugee camp in Darfur with my 3 undernourished children. Three of my children have already died, and my husband has disappeared. I am 22 years old, I have been raped, and now I am pregnant. There is no food here. We are starving. They say that the rich countries are sending us food but I don't believe it. I am starving. I don't think that I can survive this pregnancy. What will happen to my children? Who will look after them?

Pers two: I have never wanted to have children and it is for this reason that I have always been careful about my birth control practices. Ugh! I think that I might be pregnant........ WTF!

Pers three: I really love kids. I have always wanted to have a large family. My husband and I were scared shitless when I almost died while having my second kid. The doctors told me that I shouldn't have even tried to become pregnant again. The problem is that my husband and I have hostile blood types; one of us is a positive and one of us is a negative. I certainly can't ever have another child. This will kill me and the child. This is why I have had 2 abortions. If I lived in Canada or the United States I could have had my tubes tied but in France sterilisation is an illegal procedure. Abortion is legal and this is why I have had a couple of abortions but I have found these experiences to be heart-breaking.

Pers four: He told me that he loved me and that if I loved him I would do it. And besides, he said that nobody ever got pregnant on their first time. Shit! I am 14/15/16 years old. I haven't even finished school. What am I going to say to my parents?

Pers five: Where I live it is impossible to obtain birth. I sure do wish I could obtain an adequate supply of birth control pills or a diaphragm and a tube of anti-spermicide. It sure is easy to arrange for an abortion where I live and it sure is pretty much impossible for me to get my paws on birth control methods which work. Those women who have real freedom over their reproductive tracts are those women who live in the rich western countries. I feel frustrated and blocked and out of control of both my body and my life. And now I hear that wealthy western women are judging me...........! I think I hate you.

The funniest thing about this thread is the hypocrisy. There are documented cases of pro-lifer's getting abortions. People who like you will undoubtly say, they werent TRUE pro-lifers. Well...apparently they were, until the situation came to them.

Read this: "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" - When the Anti-Choice Choose

Yah, talking the talk and walking the walk are two different things, aren't they? :heh: (I think I might have left my sanctimony somewhere weird, like maybe on a melting ice floe or in Bergen-Belsen or whatever.......)

Hahahaha

Pers one: I am in a refugee camp in Darfur with my 3 undernourished children. Three of my children have already died, and my husband has disappeared. I am 22 years old, I have been raped, and now I am pregnant. There is no food here. We are starving. They say that the rich countries are sending us food but I don't believe it. I am starving. I don't think that I can survive this pregnancy. What will happen to my children? Who will look after them?

Pers two: I have never wanted to have children and it is for this reason that I have always been careful about my birth control practices. Ugh! I think that I might be pregnant........ WTF!

Pers three: I really love kids. I have always wanted to have a large family. My husband and I were scared shitless when I almost died while having my second kid. The doctors told me that I shouldn't have even tried to become pregnant again. The problem is that my husband and I have hostile blood types; one of us is a positive and one of us is a negative. I certainly can't ever have another child. This will kill me and the child. This is why I have had 2 abortions. If I lived in Canada or the United States I could have had my tubes tied but in France sterilisation is an illegal procedure. Abortion is legal and this is why I have had a couple of abortions but I have found these experiences to be heart-breaking.

Pers four: He told me that he loved me and that if I loved him I would do it. And besides, he said that nobody ever got pregnant on their first time. Shit! I am 14/15/16 years old. I haven't even finished school. What am I going to say to my parents?

Pers five: Where I live it is impossible to obtain birth. I sure do wish I could obtain an adequate supply of birth control pills or a diaphragm and a tube of anti-spermicide. It sure is easy to arrange for an abortion where I live and it sure is pretty much impossible for me to get my paws on birth control methods which work. Those women who have real freedom over their reproductive tracts are those women who live in the rich western countries. I feel frustrated and blocked and out of control of both my body and my life. And now I hear that wealthy western women are judging me...........! I think I hate you.

green, you are in fine form tonight! I'm looking forward to the inevitable response that will explain why persons of a particular belief system should have the right to control the bodies and lives of all these women. It should be interesting. Great post!

There are certainly things that are wrong but are not illegal. I just spent the day at the Underground Railroad Museum in Cincinnati (on vacation) delving into the history of slavery in the US. At the time the slaves were risking their lives trying to escape, there were free people who were breaking the law to help them. They were objecting to something that was a "personal choice." I wondered aloud with my children if in 100 years we might have a museum dedicated to the millions of unborn babies we have "exterminated" in this country in the name of "personal choice".

I saw a great bumper sticker while I was here: A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if no one believes it.

:faint:If no one believes it then it can't be the truth, for it to be the truth one person needs to believe it, and someone else needs to witness it.

I don't think you can link slavery to abortion that way, slavery was a horrendous injustice brandished on tens of thousands for cheap labor. These were human beings who didn't have a say or control over their lives, nor their families. They were seen as less than equal, CHILDREN were used as personal pets to the slave masters kids. Women were forced to sleep with men who weren't their husbands, oops I forgot they weren't allowed to marry legally. So, please tell me how a zygote/embryo/fetus who cannot breath nor survive on it's own compares.

Pro-lifers who are often times evangelicals would like so much to link enslaving humans to a womans right to decide what she should do with her body. It is also funny that these same evangelical Christians never have a solution to poverty, raising said zygote/embryo/fetus that the pregnant mom doesn't abort, or health care for said zygote/embryo/fetus.... this all falls under what EC's call social programming.

:faint:If no one believes it then it can't be the truth, for it to be the truth one person needs to believe it, and someone else needs to witness it.

 

In other words, everything is relative and there is no absolute truth? I completely disagree. There are pure values and actions that are either good or evil, right or wrong. Some things are conditional or circumstantial, but not all.

 

 

I don't think you can link slavery to abortion that way, slavery was a horrendous injustice brandished on tens of thousands for cheap labor. These were human beings who didn't have a say or control over their lives, nor their families. They were seen as less than equal, CHILDREN were used as personal pets to the slave masters kids.

 

Because these are human beings who don't have a say or control over their lives. They are seen as less than equal, CHILDREN who are seen as being owned by their mother rather than the unique individuals who they are. When we define someone as sub-human, it's really easy to deny them rights.

:faint:If no one believes it then it can't be the truth, for it to be the truth one person needs to believe it, and someone else needs to witness it.

 

The more I think about it, the more ridiculous this statement becomes. Why does truth need a consensus or a witness? For example, at one point you had an entire planet of people who were convinced the earth was flat. A huge percentage of the population believed the moon was made of green cheese. According to the experts of the day, if you left beef to rot, it would produce flies. The disease malaria is named because of a widespread belief that it came from air. None of these things was true, yet everyone believed them. And, in fact, there were witnesses. Beef really did "spontaneously" "produce" flies.

 

Truth is truth. It just IS. It doesn't matter who believes it or who manages to convince their neighbor about it. It just plain IS.

The funniest thing about this thread is the hypocrisy. There are documented cases of pro-lifer's getting abortions. People who like you will undoubtly say, they werent TRUE pro-lifers. Well...apparently they were, until the situation came to them.

 

I don't think the issue is that they weren't TRUE pro-lifers; I think the issue is that they had human moral failings, just like many others did and do. Woman in crisis pregnancies are very emotional (the first 3 months of pregnancy are the most emotional time in a woman's life) and often face a very tense situation. This is true regardless of the woman's convictions about life. It is sad when anyone makes the decision to abort, regardless of whether they are hypocritical or not.

 

Speaking of hypocritical, I find it amusing when those in favor of abortion say they dislike abortion being used as birth control (if I'm not mistaken, some have even said it in this thread) or that they believe abortion should be legal but only until "such and such" a point. If abortion truly is a morally neutral issue, who the heck cares if women use it as birth control? If the thing growing in the woman's body is her property, part of her body and her purview alone, who the heck are you to say after 22 weeks, or 3 months, or any other arbitrary period of time prior to birth, that a woman shouldn't abort?

It's actually even more amazing that there are a number of people on the planet who believe the universe is only 6 thousand years old or something as assinine as that!!!!!

In other words, everything is relative and there is no absolute truth? I completely disagree. There are pure values and actions that are either good or evil, right or wrong. Some things are conditional or circumstantial, but not all.

 

 

 

 

Because these are human beings who don't have a say or control over their lives. They are seen as less than equal, CHILDREN who are seen as being owned by their mother rather than the unique individuals who they are. When we define someone as sub-human, it's really easy to deny them rights.

Slaves were viable adults who were capable of making life choices on their own, they were able to breath and take care of themselves but weren't given a chance. It is my belief that life begins at birth and not conception. With that being said, I don't believe in abortion for myself but it isn't up to me or you to deny a WOMAN her rights to do what she wants to with her body. I guess women are sub-human in pro-lifers eyes. If "WE" as Americans cannot assure fetus' an equal quality of life after birth, then why should you or I have a say in her terminating the pregnancy. We have thousands of kids in the foster care system awaiting adoptions because their parents and families couldn't take care of them.

Slaves were viable adults who were capable of making life choices on their own, they were able to breath and take care of themselves but weren't given a chance.

 

I thought you said some slaves were children (in fact, you did, and, in fact, infants were often taken from their mothers). Is the only thing that defines life the ability to breathe and take care of oneself? Because if that's the case, there are a heck of a lot of people on oxygen for assisted breathing who, I guess, are actually dead or not worthy of living.

 

It is my belief that life begins at birth and not conception.

 

So legal abortion through 9 months of pregnancy for any reason at all. That's lovely.

 

I guess women are sub-human in pro-lifers eyes. If "WE" as Americans cannot assure fetus' an equal quality of life after birth, then why should you or I have a say in her terminating the pregnancy.

 

Everyone deserves equal "quality of life" after birth to be granted the right to life? Women aren't sub-human at all. Women are incredible, and have been sold a bill of goods that they can't be effective, productive members of society with children.

 

We have thousands of kids in the foster care system awaiting adoptions because their parents and families couldn't take care of them.

 

Why, pray tell, do so many people leave the US to adopt foreign babies? I know the answer -- I'm just wondering if you do.