You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

Thanks diva , those ultrasounds look just like my angels did at 8/9 weeks , as I said like a butter bean with the beginings of arms and legs.

Jodie - with the greatest of respect, you have seen your baby on a sonogram ( BTW ultrasound is the english word for sonogram - you are talking about the difference between an internal and external ultrasound, one is done with a probe)

I on the other hand have held an 8/9 week fetus in my hand and if you would like an in depth description I would be happy to provide it.

Gadget get hold of a copy of a book called A Child is Born by Lennart Nilsson and Lars Hamberger if you do you will see that at 4 weeks gestation the embryo is a ball of cells about the size of a pin head, that has just started to implant into the lining of the womb, a common reson for women thinking that they have had a period, otherwise know as implantation bleeding, it does not look like a very small prawn.

Nina x

P.S dont make me put up loads of links to prove the point cos you know how crap I am on computers

Gadget get hold of a copy of a book called A Child is Born by Lennart Nilsson and Lars Hamberger if you do you will see that at 4 weeks gestation the embryo is a ball of cells about the size of a pin head, that has just started to implant into the lining of the womb

I have the book. I don't disagree. I don't see your point. 4 weeks gestational, roughly 2 weeks fetal, yes, that's what's going on. We were talking about 8-10 weeks.

I love that book my copy is soooo dog-eared now. Happy memories.......

By the way how early are these feminists that you are talking about? Are we talking pre vote?

Nina x

It is totally anti-intuitive, and virtually inconceivable, to think that any feminist, early or otherwise, would support turning over decisions about her life to other people. A feminist, almost by definition, would support the maximum of choice and personal control and freedom in her own life.

I strongly suggest you go to Feminists for Life - Women Deserve Better for your own edification. Here is the byline on their "About Us" page:

If you believe in the strength of women and the potential of every human life,

If you refuse to choose between women and children,

If you believe no woman should be forced to choose between pursuing her education and career plans and sacrificing her child,

If you reject violence and exploitation,

Join us in challenging the status quo.

Because women deserve better choices.

Welcome to Feminists for Life.

There is a better way.

Which is what they show in pictures as 6/8 weeks , nit picking I know but huge differences developmentally. I forget why we got into it now? Was I advocating really early terminations *blush* Oh bugger I will have to check back wont I......

NIna x

Ooops I got distracted from looking back by this in wiki, it describes me !!

Some pro-choice moderates, who would otherwise be willing to accept certain restrictions on abortion, feel that political pragmatism compels them to oppose any such restrictions, as they could be used to form a slippery slope against all abortion

thats me then, a pro-choice moderate!!

Which is what they show in pictures as 6/8 weeks , nit picking I know but huge differences developmentally.

I don't understand. The website, here's the link again for reference, Pregnancy.org > First Trimester Fetal Development - week 1 through week 14, firstly isn't a pro-life website (at least as far as I can glean). Secondly, it shows gestational age, and at 6-8 weeks gestational (4-6 weeks fetal), it shows the development exactly right. Weeks 1-4 are lumped together, but after that it goes week by week. Are we looking at the same site?

Jodie- as when we exhanged talking points previously, I feel very sorry for you. I know you will become defensive and outraged because I said that.

Jodie hasn't said anything and I've started and deleted my response several times, but I have to say something. I'm outraged on her behalf.

Well, for what it is worth, I think I had my abortion somewhere around the 7th week after the ball got rolling (as it were). I do find these websites which display foetal development to be very interesting albeit on a largely academic level. I suppose I keep poking my nose into this debate because I feel that I am in the way of being your token pro-abortion baby-killer grrl.

I was not a victim of rape or of incest. My physical health was not threatened by this pregnancy. I was a well-educated, healthy, and responsible woman in her early 30s who had made a point of being extremely careful about her birth control practices because she knew that she never, ever wanted to be pregnant and that she never, ever wanted to have a child. I was living with a man who did want the child and who was, moreover, excellent genetic material in, oh, so many ways.

The issue was me.

Hi again gadget, yup they are 2 weeks ahead all the way through, you just have to add 2 weeks on to get the gestational age, if you look A Child is born you will see what I mean, their 7 week shot is for sure a 9 week gestation baby ,cos at 7 weeks it still looks a bit prawn like. You cant detect a heartbeat til 6 weeks , they are just 2 weeks out of synch, I dont know why but I have seen it before.

Green , I defend every womans right, my sister has always been almost OCD about her birth control ( before she got into a same sex relationship - that sure took the pressure off!!)and always said that if she did get pregnant she would terminate, as she knew catagorically she didnt want to be a mum.

If it isnt a personal question,and feel free to tell me to sling it, have you ever regretted it? Most of my friends havent, and in fact think of it as a lucky escape, I was just wondering.

Nina x

Jodie hasn't said anything and I've started and deleted my response several times, but I have to say something. I'm outraged on her behalf.

I am slightly outraged, however I JUST got to my computer. Ive been busy all day and at the baby Dr, and taking a test. I am 20 years old, I am perfectly capable of taking care of a child....and Im very sorry my sonogram (which is done vaginally, while an ultrasound is done outside the vagina) is about 8 1/2 weeks not 7-8, that was my mistake, however I still could have had an abortion at that time, and look it looks like a little human, it has arms, and legs, a tummy, a head, a brain, a heart, etc.... That sonogram was taken the first week of October. And by definition that makes it alive, because it was in animation, its been in animation sense conception because it was growing, therefore that makes it alive.

BTW, I may be having problems :cry They think I might have HPV! They found a lesion in my pap smear, but because I had never had a PAP b4, they dont know how long its been there, so they dont know if its cancerous or not. They are REALLY sure its not because I was able to concieve and I havent miscarried, but Im having more tests run Dec 3.

Heres a story...I had a very LIBERAL friend in college, however we did get along, just tried to stray away from political conversations to keep from getting each others boiling points up. She was BIG on abortion, she ALWAYS said that if she got pregnant she would abort it ASAP, and blah blah blah etc...well one day I realize that I hadnt really seen her for about 3 or 4 days, and she lived across the hall from me. I go knock on her door, she was TOTALLY not herself...very sad, very withdrawn, etc...I asked her what was going on and she finally cracked...She had secretly took a friend of hers from class to get an abortion, and it really messed her up for about 2-3 weeks, now she is adamantly against it. She is still scarred by it, almost a year later. I thought that was interesting, someone SO set in their ways could change their mind that easily.

SOOOO...I have a question....Ummm....isnt the act of having sex (between a heterosexual couple) TECHNICALLY, TRADITIONALLY to be for the purpose of reproduction, and well one of the benefits is having fun? Like the whole purpose that heterosexual people have sex with the opposite sex is to reproduce.....SOOOO basically your doing the act, of which you are aware of the possible consequences, BUT your not willing to take responsibility for what you have done?

Im willing to take responsibility for having sex when I really wasnt ready for a child (which now I am)...I realize that I have to take responsibility for what I chose...so if you dont want children...why do the deed? Thats like buying a bunch of stuff on a credit card, and then reporting the card stolen and keeping the stuff you bought...if you didnt intend to pay for it, why did you buy it? Its irresponsible...

Im not saying that I am responsible, by any means, had I been, I would have gotten rid of HIM a long time ago, and wouldnt have had pre-marital sex...however I was ready and willing to accept the consequences....If YOU dont want the child, someone else does!

Heres a story...I had a very LIBERAL friend in college, however we did get along, just tried to stray away from political conversations to keep from getting each others boiling points up. She was BIG on abortion, she ALWAYS said that if she got pregnant she would abort it ASAP, and blah blah blah etc...well one day I realize that I hadnt really seen her for about 3 or 4 days, and she lived across the hall from me. I go knock on her door, she was TOTALLY not herself...very sad, very withdrawn, etc...I asked her what was going on and she finally cracked...She had secretly took a friend of hers from class to get an abortion, and it really messed her up for about 2-3 weeks, now she is adamantly against it. She is still scarred by it, almost a year later. I thought that was interesting, someone SO set in their ways could change their mind that easily.

All these kinds of stories are interesting and they may make a difference to some people in some circumstances. But I think it is important keep in mind that they are totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue is not whether abortion is good or bad. The issue is whether the state has the right to force women to bring children to term when they do not want to for any number of reasons. That's the issue here.

When you tell your stories about how bad abortion is, etc., these stories may be effective in changing someone's mind some day. Maybe you will stop someone from having an abortion, and maybe that will be a good outcome for that person. I personally support your right to tell these stories.

But again, even though such stories are appropriate in this thread, they are totally irrelevant to the real issue. And that is, again, does the state have the right to force women to bring the child to term when the women, having heard all the stories, still don't want to. That is the issue here.

I am not particularly "in favor" of abortion. I think very few people, pro choice or otherwise, are "in favor" of people having more abortions. A particular woman may be in favor of an abortion for herself under certain circumstances, but I've never known anyone who generally would encourage other people to have more abortions. The issue here is not that one side is "in favor" of abortions and the other side is not. The issue is, who gets to decide what an individual woman should do. Is it up to so-called "pro-life" people to force their views on others and criminalize this most personal of choices? Most of us don't think so.

So, feel free to tell your stories. Just keep in mind that your own personal opinion about abortions is really totally irrelevant. The issue here is whether you have the right to force your personal opinion on others. No matter what the law is, or what the Supreme Court says, the women of this country will never let others make that decision for them. They never have, and they never will.

Jodie hasn't said anything and I've started and deleted my response several times, but I have to say something. I'm outraged on her behalf.

Sorry I haven't been around for the past few days. I REALLY am. won't go into the details, but you'd be surprised about what is going on in my life. Posting here takes a backseat, big time.

gadget you're badgering me to supply names of early feminists who were not pro-life, but you're the one who made the statement that ALL early feminists were pro-life. It is up to you to provide proof of that. You have not provided proof of that by naming some names. It is not incumbent upon me to furnish you names of early feminists who were not pro-life. I just know that you don't have any proof of what you claim. No studies have been established or background done to prove what you say about all early feminists being pro-life. We don't even know who ALL the early feminists were. Consequently as I have suspected all along, much of what you say is wishful thinking on your part. As I have seen in the past, many of the sources you cite here are from extreme and biased origins. Which is fine by me. That's your perrogative to post such things to make your point. But I hope you don't think that all of us fail to understand what you're doing.

Jodie- as when we exhanged talking points previously, I feel very sorry for you. I know you will become defensive and outraged because I said that. But I can't help feeling sorry for you and way you describe your life and your baby's father and the way your child was conceived. When you have full-time, total and complete responsibility for a small human being who looks to you for its' very survival, 24/7, being so sure of yourself could certainly come in handy. But I just think there will be many times when you'll be wondering what the heck you were thinking when you became pregnant.

I'm shocked to see your sonogram that you say was made at 6-7 weeks gestation (was it?). My daughter just had a sonogram at 8 weeks gestation and the baby is nowhere near that developed.

Listen you all, it's easy to understand... a fertilized egg is a living growing thing which is fully a part of its' mother-host. It is not an individual no matter how much you want that to be true. You need to just go with your instincts and beliefs and forget trying to convince people that a tiny fetus is a baby, in and of itself. It cannot be an individual human being until it IS an individual human being.

Be that as it may, a million people (or whatever the number you toss out there) cannot make reproductive decisions for the other millions of people in the world. It is impossible. It has never worked that way and it never will. Telling everyone else what you believe to be true just doesn't make it true to everyone else. I don't expect you to give up your "fight" for "all human life" but I expect you to respect the right of all of the other people to believe differently than you.

WHY WOULD YOU FEEL SORRY FOR ME? Basically S*** happens, and if its gonna happen to someone I know, its gonna be me...Yes the baby's father is not a good person, that fact is true. I was scared to end the relationship while I was still in CC, but I should have. MY fear caused me to be irresponsible. I should have never have gotten involved with him, I shouldnt have allowed him to walk all over me....What he did was wrong, and the things hes doing now ARE wrong...but if I would have grown "some" this wouldnt have happened. BUT he has given me a great gift, a child, who I can love and be loved back unconditionally. I will never have to be alone again, I will always have someone in my life that is going to love me no matter what. Maybe the technology that your daughter's Dr isnt as good as my Dr's, I had to go to HELL and back to get into my Dr, and I cant believe the insurance will pay her incredibly high prices, however I refuse to use a male Dr, and shes not only one of the few female Dr's around, but also one of the best 3 in this area. Ive seen lotsa people's sonograms and ultrasounds at 8 weeks and further that dont look as good as mine. But trust me, the baby was 8 1/2 weeks at the oldest during that sonogram.

BTW, lots of organisms in nature that are fully developed depend on "hosts" to live, without them, they would die. The tiny fish that live on sharks are an example...A great reference to these maybe watching the Most Extreme on Discovery.