You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

I appreciate your thoughtful post, Green. I think most pro-lifers do understand what you are feeling and fearing, but because we view both the mother and the child as important, I don't think you need to worry about wearing a burqa or being stoned in public for showing an ankle. Our differences are in the solution to a difficult problem. Even if abortion should suddenly become illegal (and I can't see that happening....it would be like putting the genie back in the bottle), women would not lose any other rights. We went a lot of years in this country without legal abortions OR burqas!!

How do you know that all early feminists were pro-life? Where was this ever published? I know that several early feminists made their views known on this, but I know of no study that has been done so that you will be correct in stating that ALL early feminists were pro-life.

You anti-choice people will stop at nothing. You use every possible means to characterize abortions and the women that get them as murderers, pure and simple.

It ain't pure and simple, this having children. It is very, very important and I believe you trivialize it by commanding that every woman everywhere be compelled to have children whether they are healthy or sick women, forming healthy or sick babies, whether their babies are known to be severely handicapped in utero or whether the mother is a raving lunatic.

You seem to want to be defined as being loving, caring human beings, but I have a hard time seeing you in that light. You sound selfish and extreme to the point of stopping at nothing to ensure that your will is imposed on every woman in the world. I find your approach terrifying for so many reasons. I hope that this tactic of yours continues because it puts the rest of America on guard against our taking this very, very important law for granted.

We went a lot of years in this country without legal abortions OR burqas!!

However, during this time a lot of women lost their live, or their uterus' due to back room abortions. They were so desperate that they either took a wire hanger and did it themselves, or they let a shady Doctor do it. A lot of people felt that with more and more women not getting shunned for being an unwed mom, that abortions would slack up... The need for legal abortions didn't have that much to do with unwed mothers feeling ashamed.

Most don't realize that shortly before abortions became legal there were to movements for rights Civil rights for blacks, and equal rights for women. I as many others believe, that if it wasn't for equal rights for women, abortions would still be illegal. So, I do believe that once a womans right to choose is taken away, it will be a slippery slope, to women can't wear pants, she can't work away from home more than 3 hours a day, and then the horrid burqa. :zip:

P.S. I have absolutely no quarrel with women or men who do not believe that women should get abortions. I have no problem with people who wish to counsel pregnant women and help them make the best possible choice whatever their particular circumstances. I have no problem with people thinking for themselves and deciding what they believe on this issue. I have a problem with people who think they are more capable of making decisions for a woman, regarding her reproductive organs (with or without a fertilized egg firmly implanted), than the woman herself.

I appreciate your thoughtful post, Green. I think most pro-lifers do understand what you are feeling and fearing, but because we view both the mother and the child as important, I don't think you need to worry about wearing a burqa or being stoned in public for showing an ankle. Our differences are in the solution to a difficult problem. Even if abortion should suddenly become illegal (and I can't see that happening....it would be like putting the genie back in the bottle), women would not lose any other rights. We went a lot of years in this country without legal abortions OR burqas!!

Thank you, L8. I have strong feelings on this subject because I was born in 1949 and although I grew up to have a very strong (and heterosexual) sex drive I always knew, even when I was very, very young, that I wanted to be able to live as freely as men could do. I was never interested in having children of my own and still don't find babies and very young children at all appealing. I wanted to be able to study, learn, travel freely, enjoy sex, work in a man's field, make as much money as a man does, and own my own property. I viewed my father and by extension all men as living much freer lives than women did. My dad was a very intelligent, and a very gifted man but then so was my mother a very intelligent and creative woman. She, however, had her wings clipped. I didn't want to have mine clipped by virtue of my sexual organs. I don't want to see any woman trapped by virtue of her sexual organs. When a woman embraces motherhood it should be by her choice and then it is a lovely thing.

How do you know that all early feminists were pro-life? Where was this ever published? I know that several early feminists made their views known on this, but I know of no study that has been done so that you will be correct in stating that ALL early feminists were pro-life.

Can you name some who weren't? I can name a lot who were. Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Susan B. Anthony. Mary Wollstonecraft. Alice Paul. I could go on. Can you name one early feminist who was in favor of abortion?

With respect to the early feminists, I must confess that I don't care what the early feminists thought on this subject of abortion. Though these women did much fine work for the rights of women many of these same folks were anti-Semites and often held other view points which many of us today would find unacceptable.

Can you name some who weren't? I can name a lot who were. Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Susan B. Anthony. Mary Wollstonecraft. Alice Paul. I could go on. Can you name one early feminist who was in favor of abortion?

Stanton asserting that her children were conceived under a program she called "voluntary motherhood," asserting her firm belief that women should have command over their sexuality and childbearing

Elizabeth_Cady_Stanton's Biography and Beliefs

Can you name some who weren't? I can name a lot who were. Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Susan B. Anthony. Mary Wollstonecraft. Alice Paul. I could go on. Can you name one early feminist who was in favor of abortion?

Anthony occasionally wrote about abortion, which she opposed, and for which she blamed men, laws, and the "double standard", as women had no other options: "No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who, for selfish gratification, heedless of her prayers, indifferent to her fate, drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime! … All the articles on this subject that I have read have been from men. They denounce women as alone guilty, and never include man in any plans for the remedy." Pulitzer prize winner Stacy Schiff has discussed Anthony's opposition to abortion, saying that "There is no question that she deplored the practice of abortion...", but "The bottom line is that we cannot possibly know what Anthony would make of today’s debate." Schiff continues: "In the 19th century, abortion often was life-threatening, contraception primitive, and a woman as little in control of her reproductive life as of her political one"

Susan_B._Anthony

"No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who, for selfish gratification, heedless of her prayers, indifferent to her fate, drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!"

Read this carefully. Susan B. Anthony said no matter what the motive, the woman who commits the deed (abortion) is guilty and it will burden her for life. She had stronger words for the men who pushed women into it, calling them thrice guilty, but she nevertheless CLEARLY believed that the "unborn innocent" shouldn't be killed.

Thank you for posting this quote from Susan B. Anthony which demonstrates she was pro-life.

Stanton asserting that her children were conceived under a program she called "voluntary motherhood," asserting her firm belief that women should have command over their sexuality and childbearing

Elizabeth Cady Stanton classified abortion as a form of "infanticide." The Revolution, 1(5):1, February 5, 1868

"When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."

Letter to Julia Ward Howe, October 16, 1873, recorded in Howe's diary at Harvard University Library

"There must be a remedy even for such a crying evil as this. But where shall it be found, at least where begin, if not in the complete enfranchisement and elevation of women?"

The Revolution, 1(10):146-7 March 12, 1868

I think her perspective on abortion is pretty clear, too.

Oh, and in the link that you posted from the Wikipedia article about Elizabeth Cady Stanton, it says (emphasis mine),

In 1868, Stanton together with Susan B. Anthony and Parker Pillsbury, a leading male feminist of his day, began publishing a weekly periodical, Revolution, with editorials by Stanton that focussed on a wide array of women's issues.[72] In a view different from many modern feminists, Stanton, who supported birth control and likely used it herself,[73] believed that abortion was infanticide, a position she discussed in Revolution.[74]

Read this carefully. Susan B. Anthony said no matter what the motive, the woman who commits the deed (abortion) is guilty and it will burden her for life. She had stronger words for the men who pushed women into it, calling them thrice guilty, but she nevertheless CLEARLY believed that the "unborn innocent" shouldn't be killed.

Thank you for posting this quote from Susan B. Anthony which demonstrates she was pro-life.

Yes, it said she was...Gadget, I have no problem admitting when someone is right...hence the fact I posted the whole quote and the link. I read the whole thing.

Oh, and in the link that you posted from the Wikipedia article about Elizabeth Cady Stanton, it says (emphasis mine),

In 1868, Stanton together with Susan B. Anthony and Parker Pillsbury, a leading male feminist of his day, began publishing a weekly periodical, Revolution, with editorials by Stanton that focussed on a wide array of women's issues.[72] In a view different from many modern feminists, Stanton, who supported birth control and likely used it herself,[73] believed that abortion was infanticide, a position she discussed in Revolution.[74]

LINKS PLEASE

I frankly believe, in my own political stance, that the innocent slaying of another being is morally injust...and these are not only Christian beliefs...most mainstream religons do not support murder of children (however so exist due to tradition). I personally believe that thinking that a fetus is not a life is ridiculous, because the potential for life exists. Your body has taken a step in forming another life, there are so many women (like my best friend Rae) who would love to have a child, and there are women throwing their children away because a baby inconveniences them. It seems rude and ungrateful for what life has given them. YET I see that orphanages FULL of poor children that no one has adopted, and Ive heard horror stories of the foster care system (my ex-fiance was a victim of the New York Orphanage/Foster Care program, and look how he turned out!) I think the main reason for this is that many families who would love to adopt simply cannot afford it...its a very expensive process as many of you know.

Im not sure EXACTLY what the solution is, but I dont believe that its the intentional slaying of innocent children. PERHAPS the government should focus a little more of the budget on the current orphanage/foster care programs already established, and a little less on abortion issues. HOWEVER I do believe that abortion research is important, Im not saying to do away with it AT ALL, just maybe there should be a budget change, and not only in that department TRUST ME!