who supports right to choose

[BJean 16]

As for the baby bartering business, it is hardly a delusional concept. And if you really are as involved in the anti-choice movement and involved in helping to place unwanted babies, then you know as well as I that there are people who are in the baby selling business. For you to pretend otherwise is assinine.

[pattygreen 5]

ok I have been quiet in the forums for a while now since my last few threads worked their way to completion but i was just noticing the post of my buddy bjean and decided to look at what the fuss was about .... prayers of unbeliever fall on deaf ears pattygreen are you higher that i usually am... what is your problem first of all if a person is a unbeliever y would they be preying second ... if a person who doesn't trust God prays and is not herd how will they ever begin to trust God. I am blown away by how frickin self righteous you are... Remember even Christians weren't always Christians ... i think alot of religious people forget that ..... Get your mind right and remember that we worship and God of love, forgiveness, and hope ... Where do you get off riding your high horse looking down your nose at people who are still weak in their walk. I mean really?!?!? a parent never wants harm to come to a child but sometime it happens and its not because the parent didn't do everything in their power to stop the child from getting hurt in the process. it kills God to see any one suffering but because he gave us free will it is sometimes unavoidable no matter how much he tries to correct out path. If all Christians believed as you do then where would the hope be.

Yes, God answers all prayers for salvation. Other than that, If they don't believe in God, then who are they praying to? If they don't ask in the name of Jesus, then who are they asking?

[gadgetlady 4]

A fetus is not a person.

A fetus is most definitely a person. It is a very young person, but "fetus" is not a term that defines something other than a human being in the very early stage of pre-born life.

Do you prefer the way it is in some countries where the government tells it's citizens whether they can have babies and/or what sex they are allowed to have? As far as I am concerned what you want it no different.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? I have no concern over whether people have sex or what they do for birth control or whether they want to sterilize themselves or anything else along those lines. My concern is, once a human being is in existence, that we protect that human being from being killed by other human beings. So I am wholly opposed to killing children based on gender, as well as killing them based on pretty much any other reason you can come up with.

[gadgetlady 4]

Relevant phrase being "post-uterine life". I have no quarrel with the government getting involved in the protection of a child. But I do have a quarrel with the government getting its' grubby little hands on my uterus and anything contained within that package of MINE.

Unfortunately, our reproductive system dictates that the place a new baby gets to grow is within a mother's womb. I know a lot of people think that's not fair or it's oppressive or whatever, but it is what it is. Just because the baby is growing in the mother's womb doesn't make it not a baby and it doesn't make it something we can own and kill at will.

[gadgetlady 4]

As for the baby bartering business, it is hardly a delusional concept. And if you really are as involved in the anti-choice movement and involved in helping to place unwanted babies, then you know as well as I that there are people who are in the baby selling business. For you to pretend otherwise is assinine.

What you're delusional about is my potential participation in such a thing. Whatever.

[pattygreen 5]

I would like to clarify something. God doesn't embed anyone with their circumstances. Life happens. He intervenes if believers ask him to. Prayers of unbelievers who don't trust God fall on deaf ears. What would make someone who won't acknowledge that he exists ask him for anything anyway? If a child of God asks him for anything, he will have it, unless God sees that it wouldn't benefit them or it may harm them. Just like a parent/child relationship.{quote}

Rodriguezequal, this post was not meant to hurt you. I'm sorry that it did. When I wrote it, I wasn't thinking of you as that person,(the unbeliever) but after rereading it, I can see that you could be that person, since you have stated that you do not believe in God before.

Even though what I posted is factual, I apologize for not being sensitive to what you have been through and should not have put it out there. Sorry.

[BJean 16]

It's unfortunate that babies must be conceived, grow and be nurtured inside a woman's womb? I find that to be a very strange statement and one that sounds very self-serving in this debate.

What would your ultimate wish list include? That all fertilized eggs and all frozen embryos be turned over to you to ensure that they survive gestation and become living, breathing fully developed babies? That would make you happy in your perfect world?

In a perfect world, there would be no rape. In a perfect world, there would be no incest. In a perfect world, there would be no deformities or malfunctioning female anatomical parts. There would be no women who are too fragile, either physically or mentally to carry a baby to term. In a perfect world, every woman would be a fully-equipped baby making machine, turning them out on a regular basis. At least in your perfect world.

Well, this is the furthest thing from a perfect world. And women are not perfect. And there are rapists and there are abusers and there are hideous deformities and genetic disorders. In a perfect world, we wouldn't be having this debate. You'd be taking care of your brood and I'd be tending to mine and we'd be wishing each other the highest order of peace, happiness and tranquility.

This is the furthest thing from a perfect world. You're not perfect and neither am I. Neither of us is perfect enough to make life and death decisions for other people.

Please know that no matter how many times you declare that a woman is a killer if she has an abortion, I will rebut that with as much strength as I have. You are not a perfect person with all the undisputable truths that are needed to make a declaration like that.

[gadgetlady 4]

It's unfortunate that babies must be conceived, grow and be nurtured inside a woman's womb? I find that to be a very strange statement and one that sounds very self-serving in this debate.

It's unfortunate because many people wish that a mother's body were not inconvenienced for 9 months. I don't find it unfortunate -- I find it incredible -- but it's one of the facts of life that is unfortunate for those who don't want to be pregnant.

In a perfect world, there would be no rape. In a perfect world, there would be no incest. In a perfect world, there would be no deformities or malfunctioning female anatomical parts. There would be no women who are too fragile, either physically or mentally to carry a baby to term. In a perfect world, every woman would be a fully-equipped baby making machine, turning them out on a regular basis. At least in your perfect world.

There is no such thing as a perfect world. But we shouldn't kill people when we find circumstances to not be what we'd like them to be.

Neither of us is perfect enough to make life and death decisions for other people.

Absolutely right. Mothers should not be making death decisions for other people -- in this case, their offspring.

[TheWatcher 1]

I would like to clarify something. God doesn't embed anyone with their circumstances. Life happens. He intervenes if believers ask him to. Prayers of unbelievers who don't trust God fall on deaf ears. What would make someone who won't acknowledge that he exists ask him for anything anyway? If a child of God asks him for anything, he will have it, unless God sees that it wouldn't benefit them or it may harm them. Just like a parent/child relationship.{quote}

Rodriguezequal, this post was not meant to hurt you. I'm sorry that it did. When I wrote it, I wasn't thinking of you as that person,(the unbeliever) but after rereading it, I can see that you could be that person, since you have stated that you do not believe in God before.

Even though what I posted is factual, I apologize for not being sensitive to what you have been through and should not have put it out there. Sorry.

but that's just the point you talk about and seems like too unbelievers like they and less human that you ... you need to soften your tone.... do you read what people say about you ... its not just me... you need to remember that even non believers deserve the respect you would give a believer. and if you are amiss to what i am talking about go back read some of your post and the responses that follow and be OBJECTIVE when reviewing .... you have been being such a stereo typical bible thumper that makes people of no faith, wavering faith, or stong faith run for cover. Jesus didn't condem every sinner he met but in most of your post it seems that you do.... do u see the disconnect?

[BJean 16]

gadget: "Absolutely right. Mothers should not be making death decisions for other people -- in this case, their offspring. "

So at least we agree on one thing - offspring belong to "their" parents. They are not products of the world. They have creators and those who are charged with the responsibility of literally bringing them to life, if they so choose. It's the natural order of things. You can't change it by intervening in some way.

You can be there to catch any unwanted babies to give them a home, once they are born. But you can't police every uterus in the world and demand that a fertilized egg be developed into a baby. You just can't.

Even if you make a convincing argument that you should be able to decide what every woman should choose in every case of pregnancy in the world, you can't change mother nature. Mother nature says the woman is the decider, that's why she gave her the sole responsibility to take care of this business. You're trying to take that away from women, but you can't, no matter what you do. (Short of imprisoning women and monitoring them 24/7.)

[gadgetlady 4]

gadget: "Absolutely right. Mothers should not be making death decisions for other people -- in this case, their offspring. "

So at least we agree on one thing - offspring belong to "their" parents. They are not products of the world.

Uh, yes, there is a familial connection and the children are the children of their parents. But that doesn't indicate ownership. My husband is my husband, he belongs to me, but I don't have the right to kill him.

They have creators and those who are charged with the responsibility of literally bringing them to life, if they so choose.

The choice of the would-be parents comes before the pregnancy. Once the mother is pregnant, they have become parents whether they like it or not. It is no longer a choice. The only choice at that point is a live baby or a dead baby.

It's the natural order of things. You can't change it by intervening in some way.

LOL. There is nothing "natural" about elective abortion. It is its own intervention, a violent surgical procedure that ends a life that would otherwise naturally eventually become an adult.

[BJean 16]

If there is a spontaneous abortion, it is also included in the natural order of things. If there is a surgical abortion, then there is still nothing you can do to stop a woman who is ill-equipped, for whatever reason, to continue the development of that fertilized egg.

I would much rather a woman would choose to have a procedure (that is simple and relatively painless to everyone involved) to stop the development of a fertilized egg, if the woman so ill-equipped, either emotionally or physically, that she is unable to support the development of a baby.

You think adoption is the answer. I think adoption could be the answer, but I believe that it is not the answer for everyone.

[gadgetlady 4]

If there is a spontaneous abortion, it is also included in the natural order of things.

Yes, if it is a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage), it is natural, just like a natural death. You know as well as I that that has nothing to do with the discussion we're having here.

If there is a surgical abortion, then there is still nothing you can do to stop a woman who is ill-equipped, for whatever reason, to continue the development of that fertilized egg.

That's what laws are for. Protecting the defenseless.

I would much rather a woman would choose to have a procedure (that is simple and relatively painless to everyone involved) to stop the development of a fertilized egg, if the woman so ill-equipped, either emotionally or physically, that she is unable to support the development of a baby.

I would much rather people not kill people for any reason.

You think adoption is the answer. I think adoption could be the answer, but I believe that it is not the answer for everyone.

I don't think adoption is the answer for everyone. I just know taking the life of another human being to solve a problem is not ever a good answer.

Edited May 23, 2009 by gadgetlady

[BJean 16]

gadget: "Once the mother is pregnant, they have become parents whether they like it or not. It is no longer a choice."

And that is where you are completely mistaken.

Your argument is based on the idea that all women choose to have the sexual encounter that has made them pregnant and that pregnancy is the consequence to their choosing to have sexual contact. That argument is false. Many women have sexual contact without their consent. And pregnancy should not be a life-long penalty for a woman who has already been penalized just because she is a woman and because she was weaker than the man who impregnanted her.

It is bizzare that you have stated that if a woman has become pregnant she is destined in each and every case to have a baby. You know that is totally wrong. I brought up spontaneous abortions because they happen very frequently. There are miriad other reasons why fertilized eggs do not have the capability to produce viable babies.

All of your focus and sympathies lie within a teeny, tiny blob of tissue that you believe that you know what its' destiny is. You do not know what the long-term destiny is of every fertilized egg. And only the women involved can know whether it is within their power to bring a baby to term, especially in the cases where they were not given a choice whether or not they wanted to become pregnant and especially in the cases where they were forced to have sexual contact.

[gadgetlady 4]

gadget: "Once the mother is pregnant, they have become parents whether they like it or not. It is no longer a choice."

And that is where you are completely mistaken.

Your argument is based on the idea that all women choose to have the sexual encounter that has made them pregnant and that pregnancy is the consequence to their choosing to have sexual contact.

No, that's not my argument at all. I fully understand that some women are raped. Lots of things happen to us in life that are not our will and leave us without a choice. "Once a woman develops breast cancer, she is either a cancer victim or a cancer survivor; she has no other choice" -- that statement doesn't require her consent to the cancer.

My point is that once a baby is conceived, there is no reversing the fact that the baby exists. The parents are parents, regardless of whether they want to be or not. If they opt for the fate of their child to be death, then they are parents of a dead child. They can't reverse the fact that they are parents.

It is bizzare that you have stated that if a woman has become pregnant she is destined in each and every case to have a baby. You know that is totally wrong. I brought up spontaneous abortions because they happen very frequently. There are miriad other reasons why fertilized eggs do not have the capability to produce viable babies.

Every pregnant woman already has a baby. Some babies die in utero. All babies die at a young age. All people die eventually. That doesn't negate the fact that they were ever alive!

All of your focus and sympathies lie within a teeny, tiny blob of tissue that you believe that you know what its' destiny is. You do not know what the long-term destiny is of every fertilized egg.

We don't -- or shouldn't -- determine whether someone lives or dies based on what we believe their destiny might be.

That being said, I don't only focus and sympathize with the baby, even though he or she is 100% defenseless and a victim; I am also fully sympathetic with the mother. I recognize her plight and believe in supporting her emotionally, physically, and financially. Women deserve better than being told they can, should, or must kill their babies to lead full lives. Causing others' deaths never advances our lives in any meaningful or positive way.