PBS special "The Mormons" made me furious!

[Wheetsin 714]

Sunta, I can really relate to your comment about being 7 and ticked when you heard that women can't do something. I remember being equally appalled as a kid as I learned about the life of our Orthodox Jewish friends who lived next door, and being so thankful that my parents weren't raising me in a world with artificial walls. I would look at that mother and wonder where herSELF went

Rings bells here, too. I can remember being very fairly young and asking my mom why, if she believed in god, did she not go to church? And I remember her telling me she wasn't allowed to because she had gotten divorced. So I asked her why she got divorced and she told me it was because the guy beat her up. I asked her if she liked church, and she said yes. I couldn't, for the life of me (at the ripe old age I was) understand why she wouldn't be allowed to go to the church because she left someone who was beating her up. Of course, I was young and getting the simplified version of the story, but it's not like age has made that situation make any more sense.

Alexandra, I think it's beautiful that you thank your parents for that. Often if I'm in a situation where I'm asked what I'm most thankful for, my response is somehow related to the fact that my parents left me free to choose most of the direction in my life. Of course they were there overseeing it all, but even when I chose paths that caused them pain (as long as it was not destructive), they never intervened. They always supported me even if they didn't agree with my choices, and even when my choices went against the fabric of everything they knew. And they never let our differences become a point of contention. I CANNOT express how COMPLETELY grateful I am for this, and I can only hope that I'm able to do it the exact same way when I pop one out.

[Alexandra 55]

Often if I'm in a situation where I'm asked what I'm most thankful for, my response is somehow related to the fact that my parents left me free to choose most of the direction in my life. Of course they were there overseeing it all, but even when I chose paths that caused them pain (as long as it was not destructive), they never intervened. They always supported me even if they didn't agree with my choices, and even when my choices went against the fabric of everything they knew. And they never let our differences become a point of contention. I CANNOT express how COMPLETELY grateful I am for this, and I can only hope that I'm able to do it the exact same way when I pop one out.

Oh, yes, it's a gift incalculable our parents give us when they give us the ability (and responsibility) of self-determination. Some would say they gave us enough rope to hang ourselves with, which is indeed another way of looking at it.

You should have seen my (atheist) father's face when I told him I was majoring in Religious Studies, and six years later when I was marrying into an Irish Catholic family.

[Wheetsin 714]

My mom is Catholic. I was born about 2 months premature. When I was maybe 2 weeks old I contracted (streptococcal) spinal meningitis. It was a bad case. I was misdiagnosed for 3 days, so by the time I was properly diagnosed, it was critical and they didn't think I would live. (As I'm told) I spent several weeks in the hospital with about 14 IVs hooked into my spine and head, and they pulled so many spinals that I ran dry. At one point during the 2nd week they called my mother (who had JUST left, long enough to shower and pick up some clothes) and told her that if she wanted to say good-bye to me, she had better hurry up and get back out there.

I'm fuzzy on the details, but at some point she panicked because I had not been baptized yet, and baptized me herself. So we have an excommunicated Catholic buying an iced tea from the vending machine and using it in lieu of holy Water - I'm guessing it didn't really count.

That's the only time they took the initiative to influence religion in my life. And I don't exactly remember it, so we're cool.

[lisah25 3]

sweethot143,

as I read this thread, I go back to my siminary teacher telling me he would not argue religion with me, as LDS believe that each has their own opinions and arguing raises doubt in your beliefs. I never understood what he ment or why he wouldnt argue with me, but I see now!

Interesting, I've always been encouraged to have discussion, debates whatever about my beliefs. To question my pastors. It's actually helped me in my faith because it's made me think about what I say I believe and why.

[Carlene 12]

I'm fuzzy on the details, but at some point she panicked because I had not been baptized yet, and baptized me herself. So we have an excommunicated Catholic buying an iced tea from the vending machine and using it in lieu of holy Water - I'm guessing it didn't really count.

It absolutely counts. Your mom probably wasn't excommunicated. She was divorced and remarried, right? She's out of grace, but that's all. Being excommunicated takes a whole, official process.

[Alexandra 55]

Wheetsin! You're baptized!! Feel any different?

Me, I'm a heathen, through and through. Babies born to atheists have to go it alone.

[Carlene 12]

Wheetsin! You're baptized!! Feel any different?

On second thought.....I should not have posted a response to Wheetsin's post.

Baptism, to Christians, is sacred.....certainly not a "ha ha" kind of thing.

[Wheetsin 714]

It absolutely counts. Your mom probably wasn't excommunicated. She was divorced and remarried, right? She's out of grace, but that's all. Being excommunicated takes a whole, official process.

Excommunication is the term she used with me. I can't say she wasn't misusing it, or using it because she figured I knew nothing about it. She divorced and them remarried outside of the church (at the DMV!) All I know for sure is that she has limitations on what she's able to do. E.g. she cannot receive sacraments, but she can attend mass. And I know that in order to be accepted back into the church, she had to do a lot of things she just wasn't willing to go (or perhaps that was in order to have her marriage to my father recognized... I really don't remember, we don't talk about it frequently).

Wheetsin! You're baptized!! Feel any different?

Hmm... I feel like an atheist whose mother poured tea on her head. Nope, not really! :biggrin1:

[green 6]

I was baptised and confirmed Anglican even though my father was a Jewish atheist and my mother was ambivalent about her belief at the time when we were small. It was however the 1950s and everyone was supposed to have a faith and so we were baptised in the Anglican church. My mother even attended church and made many half-hearted attempts to drag us along but we preferred to sit around the kitchen table with our father on a Sunday morning.

As for confirmation, well, I was sent off to a boarding school run by Anglo-Catholic nuns when I was 10 and I briefly became very devout. It was during that period that I became confirmed. Later I drifted into Agnosticism and from there into outright disbelief.

My mother remained a spiritual woman though she was certainly far from being a Christian at the time of her death. I believe that she felt that because so much of humanity had spent their time fervently searching for God and had, as a result, set up such an array of belief systems, that this must mean that there is Something Greater than Us out there. She did not, however, believe that one single religion had it right. She didn't see how one single religion could be the right one.

[Betsyjane 2]

Mormons I've known have been calm, patient, and family oriented. And they credit their religion for their goodness. I've never known a mormon polygamist, child rapist, or wife beater. I've never known a mormon man who puts down his wife.

Some people get all the good stuff out of their beliefs. More power to them. If the choice is between the angry atheists here and the peaceful mormon, I'll take the latter...day saint.

[Sunta 4]

As long as the marriages involve consenting adults, why would anyone care how many wives a man has?

I agree 100%

Consenting adults being key.

[green 6]

This is in the way of a P.S. about my mother and her beliefs. She did become in the way of a scavenger or a kind of collector crab when it came to religions. She liked to sort through them and would only agree to believe in the most positive aspects of their belief systems. She was, for instance, fond of the Hindu approach to animal life, the respect which this religion grants other living creatures. She would also try to argue herself out of colds and other viruses using the logic, as she saw it, inherent in Christian Science. She did not like the exclusionary aspects, the mean-spirited aspects which can and do grow around belief systems.

[Sunta 4]

You seem like such a bitter and unhappy person, to spend so much time bashing somthing that you obviously know not much about. If living without religion would lead me to anywhere close to were you are, then that is reason enough for me to continue to beleive in my savior Jesus Christ and strive daily to follow his commandments and be a better person, mother, and friend.

Are you addressing me? Since you quoted me in this post I will assume this is addressed to me.

I am in no way bitter, or unhappy. In fact I have one of the happiest lives of anyone I know.

I do, though, get angry when I see religion denigrating women, and victimizing children. Is this why you say I seem "bitter"- because I care about the welfare of my fellow human beings?

Speaking of unhappy, would you like to explain why Utah leads the nation in antidepressant use?

Did you even see the special I'm talking about?

And also, I find it amusing that you criticize my knowledge as coming from "reading". Since I don't live in Utah, how else would I be able to gather information, except from reading and watching credible shows like ones on PBS?

I submit that Mormon women are largely desperately unhappy, suffer tremendous pressure to be "perfect", and feel the effects of their subordination deeply, and therefor there is a high rate of anti-depressant use among Mormon women in an effort to counteract their oppressive lives.

And yes, it does make me a little sad and angry that they would have to suffer in this way. But then again I am a very sensitive person who has a deep sense of empathy for my fellow human beings.

[Sunta 4]

I encourage everyone on this thread to read the following paper, written by a Mormon (not ex-Mormon) doctor and professor in examining Mormon's women's deep depression and use of anti-depressants:

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/prozac.htm

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Mormons I've known have been calm, patient, and family oriented. And they credit their religion for their goodness. I've never known a mormon polygamist, child rapist, or wife beater. I've never known a mormon man who puts down his wife.

Some people get all the good stuff out of their beliefs. More power to them. If the choice is between the angry atheists here and the peaceful mormon, I'll take the latter...day saint.

I have known some pretty horrible people that are Mormon, but I have known some pretty horrible people that were of all faiths and lack of faith. People are people, there are good and there are bad. Religion has little to do with it.

If you look at stats of who is in prison, it isn't the atheists taking up the bunk beds. It is the Christians. Does this mean Christianity has failed? I don't think so. If you look at educational levels between Christians and atheists, atheists win that one hands down. So I'm not sure religion has anything to do with it overall, I really think it is based on education. The more education someone has the less likely they are to do drugs, steal from others, harm others, etc.

Atheists have a lower divorce rate than most Christians. I credit a variety of issues to that. I think organized religion puts pressure on people that is simply unrealistic. Their God doesn't put this pressure on them but their churches do. I think many Christians don't know what actual love is. They claim to love everyone. Yet they are divorcing at rates higher than the average. Maybe they are expected to get on with their married lives so they hurry and try to find a spouse, not sure. Maybe education plays a role in this as well. While the atheists are in college Christians are getting married and having a family? Atheists marry later in life? Just a thought.

Overall I don't believe religion does society a lot of good. It may do individual people a wealth of good, but not society as a whole. Stats demonstrate this quite well. People talk about charity. Atheists donate money too. During the national day of prayer the atheists had a blood drive. We all do our own thing, some choose to advertise their good deeds so they get some special credit for it. Others don't care if people know or not. People assume all the time since I am not Christian that I don't contribute to my community. I'll put my dollars and volunteer hours up against 95% of the Christian community and I'll win that one. I don't count those hours and chalk it up to religion so for society, it apparently doesn't count.

So when people talk about their church donating more money than any others during Katrina, etc., I have to laugh. Honestly... how silly is that? So atheists don't stand up and insist on being counted when we do a good deed... I guess it doesn't count unless we insist on recognition.

The world has a lot to learn about atheism. We merely believe in one less God than the Christians. Do the Christians believe in Ra or the Hindu Gods? No? I don't either. I merely believe in one less God than the Christians.

I've been slammed by a patient in ICU before for working on a Sunday. It's the Lord's day. The mere notion that I could possibly be a nonbeliever never crossed his mind. He kept telling me all day long I'm a good girl, I have morality, I do a good job, but I work on SUNDAY! Hello? I was taking care of HIM while HE was in ICU! Would I have been a good Christian girl had I left him to fend for himself after his heart attack? I couldn't have won that one.

If people only realized that we atheists, the ones that are the outcasts of society, the folks without morality, the folks that let the good Christians do all the work of the world... if they had ANY clue how many of us are in medicine, they might never step foot in a hospital again in fear of demons or some other part of their myth. You can't stand on your tippy toes with arms outstretched at a hospital, spin in circles, and not hit an atheist.

Right, we don't contribute to society much.