PBS special "The Mormons" made me furious!

[kaylali 0]

Did you pay attention to the last line in that quote that you pulled up. "Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in there behalf." nothing is DONE to anyone.

[quo

te=Sunta;459636]Ok, I went to the Website you suggested sweethot, and found this:

"Jesus Christ taught that baptism is essential to the salvation of all who have lived on earth (see John 3:5). Many people, however, have died without being baptized. Others were baptized without proper authority. Because God is merciful, He has prepared a way for all people to receive the blessings of baptism. By performing proxy baptisms in behalf of those who have died, Church members offer these blessings to deceased ancestors. Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done in their behalf."

Ummmm.... how is this not an atrocious practice that directly subverts the individual's right to decide if they want to be made a Mormon? They're dead! They can't speak for themselves!

Also, how do I ensure that MY name doesn't somehow come up in their files after I've died? Because I NEVER want my name associated with this religion.

What about if I started baptizing all Mormon names I can find as some other religion? How would they feel about that?

[kaylali 0]

wow that is so bold to say things that you dont fully understand! The fundamentalist mormons that you spoke of like waren jeffs etc.... are not at all related to "The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" also known as Mormons. they are 2 totally different church groups that are not associated together. I to dissagree with waren jeffs group and the pologamy and such.

Sorry you have such a warped knowledge of the religion. And I mean terrible warped.

I know that "officially", mormons are not supposed to practice polygamy, but the fact is, many of them do, especially fundamentalist groups within Mormonism. Within polygamy is the practice of CHILD RAPE. That is why Warren Jeffs (ever heard of him?) was arrested after being one of the FBI's 10 most wanted.

He's the president of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. He is a Mormon. Many sects of Mormons practice polygamy under a "don't ask don't tell policy". They force young girls into marriages with much older men. This is child rape.

So if you want, I don't have a problem saying "Fundamentalist Mormons who still practice polygamy and child rape" instead of just saying "Mormons" when I refer to the group as a whole. Would that be preferable?

And the reason why I am so impassioned about it is because I, along with millions of other people, are very disturbed at the proliferation of all the right-wing Christian groups who are determined to take over the United States and turn our country into a theocracy.

[marys 2]

Carlene and others, Here are some of my musings/rants on my Catholic experience...

Many moons ago, my mom quit the church (though now she goes again!) when the priest told her if she used a diaphram/birthcontrol she would go to hell. The doctors told her if she got pregnant again she would die and the priest told her if that was god's will, so be it.

I questioned the baptism/purgatory issue since I was 9 and was sent home from Sunday school so many times. Finally I was told I was NOT to ask any questions and that I was to accept all that was told to me. I was big on wondering where all the people who weren't catholic or baptized going to go when they died- Answer purgatory is for them - just cuz they don't know any better isn't any reason they would NECESSARILY go to hell.

My poor sister finally relented and had her baby baptized after my folks tormented her with worry that she wouldn't get into heaven. Of course they haven't been to church since but by god at least she won't be stuck in purgatory.

Maybe it was just my congregation but growing up I saw TWO priests breakdown on the pulpit (one banging and banging saying god is knocking let him in) finally carried off by the nuns to never return. TWO who came to our house regularly (my mom was always sick) who drank so much my dad had to drive them back and then hid the liquor from them.

And one last rant - i absolutely HATE when people say - Hate the sin, Love the sinner.

I'm certainly not the poster child for any religion nor is this rambling by any means close to touching on the tenets of the religion - just my rambling.

[Spot 20]

sweethot143, kudos to you for explaining your religion in such a calm and respectable manor.

My views on Mormons and every other religion is that they're all filled with beliefs that are no crazier than the other. Christianity to Scientology to whatever, it's really all just as unbelievable as the next. So while some of the things here shock me, they do no more than information about another religion would.

I don't think I would mind being baptized after death. I would mind if my record was changed from whatever I am now to Mormon. I may or may not be able to decide if I want to accept being Mormon after death but how do the living Mormons in the ceremony hear me? Or are no official records change..... just a little check by my name or something?

[anonemouse 1]

My only objection to the post-death baptism is that I don't want to go down in history as a Mormon. I want to go down in history as an Atheist. To me, it's desecration to officially change someone's religious beliefs after they've died. I don't give a damn what other people believe, even if it is my descendents. I am NOT a Mormon, and they better not try to have me become one after I die. 'Cause, I swear, I will come back and haunt the little bastards.

[Sunta 4]

they are 2 totally different church groups that are not associated together.

You act as if they were never affliated, and that Warren Jeffs does not consider himself to be Mormon. While it's true that they practice in seperate temples, they are still Mormons, and as such are included in the group to which I'm referring.

My guess is that even within the "real" Mormon church, there is polygamy going on, even though it's not officially recognized. If you don't believe that, I have a great piece of land in Florida I might be able to interest you in...

[Sunta 4]

Christianity to Scientology to whatever, it's really all just as unbelievable as the next. So while some of the things here shock me, they do no more than information about another religion would.

I get your point, but I have to say, the idea that we are all possessed by aliens is just a wee bit more strange than the belief in a savior.

But just by a hair.

[Ariel 1]

SweetHot I am so impressed with you. You have kept your calm despite attempts to provoke you. I don't know anything about the Mormon religion but you are making it look creditable.

Ok and whats up with the underwear???

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

This church and its beleifs are so great even though all of its members may not be.

Actually, it's typically the believers that think it's great.

I recall a group of believers that thought their leader was great too, you know... the folks found dead with quarters in their pockets.

The Mormon church is not great. The believers feel that way, but it doesn't make it true. It means it is right for them, not the rest of the world.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

ok so the key words there were " Individuals can then choose to accept or reject what has been done on their behalf." so if one of us is gracious enough to give you the opportunity to accept the Gospel, you still have your free agency and are able to choose if you want to or not and if you do choose to accept it all the proper ordinances have been done for you. Makes complete sense.

If someone of another religion wants to baptize me in Proxy then so be it, i don't think any of us would care , since we all have free agency, the right to choose. so if I choose not to become whatever they baptised me for then that baptism was nothing. The people were doing what they felt was right, so i see nothing wrong with that.

Your God requires a human that never met the person to baptize them (assuming they were never baptized) before he will let them enter heaven?

Not much of a God in my book. If I were to create a God I have to admit, I'd do a better job. :cry

I think just the fact that you don't see the sheer insanity of performing this disgusting practice speaks a great deal. It reminds me of how brain washed I was during my Catholic days. I know I should change my wording but honestly, that is how I feel. I'm really not slamming you, but I do relate to you.

[sweethot143 2]

sweethot143, kudos to you for explaining your religion in such a calm and respectable manor.

My views on Mormons and every other religion is that they're all filled with beliefs that are no crazier than the other. Christianity to Scientology to whatever, it's really all just as unbelievable as the next. So while some of the things here shock me, they do no more than information about another religion would.

I don't think I would mind being baptized after death. I would mind if my record was changed from whatever I am now to Mormon. I may or may not be able to decide if I want to accept being Mormon after death but how do the living Mormons in the ceremony hear me? Or are no official records change..... just a little check by my name or something?

you would not go down in history as a Mormon, fact is that The Church won't know what you chose, but if you did happen to choose to accept it then your work is done. Here on Earth nothing is changed, other than the fact that the Temple will not do work for you again since it is done. I don't think that members of The Church would be disrespect enough to actually go through changing official records if you have any. , seriously This is not a big deal.

Sunta, the Warren Jeffs group are not Mormons in any manner of speaking, are you saying that if I call myself a Jew then i am a jew even if I practive everything they preach against and go against everything they stand for? Start Murdering people in the name of the Jews? No I don't think think the kind and peaceful Jewish community would recognize me and my followers as part of them. would you? Also, there aren't any real Mormons practicing Poligamy, its lagainst the law and against church teachings. They would be excommunicated from the church if they were practicing that. It did happen for a period of time for a reason and now it's not in practice.

I explained the underware in other posts, someone else explained it too. It's basically just a reminder to you and symbollic of different things, modesty being a big one.

[Lap_dancer 8]

I live in Utah now (non mormon but with several mormon friends - one couple practicing and all the rest jack mormons - raised mormon but not practicing and most ostracized from their family etc.)

Yep, I was raised catholic and thought that was bad - mormon beliefs seem even more outrageous.

My one friend told me of a ceremony she was forced to participate in at around 11 - baptism for the dead - in front of a panel of men - dressed in white and baptised over and over again - she said about 50 times with the guy chanting the names of dead people she didn't even know then brought back to the church - I kept asking her what was it about and she said it was never discussed with her - strange!

Then, what they do before you get married is wild - annointing your parts in some wierd ceremony..

Another friend's sister's husband cheated on her three or more times and was forgiven because he was a sleepwalker - ha. And, yes if you get divorced for any reason the wife is always stuck to the first husband ..

hmm let's see what else I've heard - different layers of heaven that you can only go to if you follow the rules for that layer (if you don't tithe and wear your garmets, go to church and all the stake and ward meetings you aint getting in top echelon - blah blah)

my other fnon mormon friend sent her two dgtrs to a slumber party - they are 8 & 10 and the mormon family sent them home cuz their pj's (shorts and tank tops) weren't modest.

ugh - I really don't mean this to be a slam against mormons but just sharing some strange things that I've experienced here.

Yeah. My daughter's BF is Mormon. The boys go on a mission kind of experience when they are 15 and are called "Elders" at the church.

No soda pop or caffiene.

.................................................

Warren Jeffs is doing his own thing. He can call himself whatever he choses but he's a criminial.

............................................................

Proxy baptisms seem about as effective as proxy "I'm sorry's."

.......................................................................................

I'm not making fun of the LDS and hold them in great respect for one thing...family. They are very pro family. Very pro couples. The church here has many activities, socials and so forth to build friendships. And just like Fallwell doesn't represent many Christians, I think there are many folks out there who profess to be whatever affiliated with a well known group but do a poor job representing it.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I'm not making fun of the LDS and hold them in great respect for one thing...family. They are very pro family. Very pro couples. The church here has many activities, socials and so forth to build friendships. And just like Fallwell doesn't represent many Christians, I think there are many folks out there who profess to be whatever affiliated with a well known group but do a poor job representing it.

I wonder something. Look at the horrific spelling of many posters. Loose, lose... 4-5 letter words and I am shocked at how many people can't spell a 4-5 letter word. Yet I don't recall seeing LDS members that can't spell simple words. Does this have to do with family environments? Actually raising their children vs. permitting schools and society to raise their children?

I have absolutely no respect for religion. I think it causes huge emotional problems for a great number of people to teach them there is no difference in myth/fact. When people are raised to fear not believing, that just isn't healthy no matter how you look at it. The manipulation and mind games that go with religion are without excuse and nothing but a method of control. But, I agree with you regarding the "family" concept. More should live this way and then perhaps children would learn to spell small words.

[Wheetsin 714]

I wonder something. Look at the horrific spelling of many posters. Loose, lose... 4-5 letter words and I am shocked at how many people can't spell a 4-5 letter word. Yet I don't recall seeing LDS members that can't spell simple words. Does this have to do with family environments?

I don't know about that one. Look back at this thread, or others, at some of the posts made by self-professed mormons. Look at the grammar, sentence structure, etc. The forum has an integrated spell check so if you're going by the spelling in the posts, that has to be taken with a grain of salt. We do not, however, have a grammar check.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I don't know about that one. Look back at this thread, or others, at some of the posts made by self-professed mormons. Look at the grammar, sentence structure, etc. The forum has an integrated spell check so if you're going by the spelling in the posts, that has to be taken with a grain of salt. We do not, however, have a grammar check.

Well, I tried. I am about as anti-organized religion as one can get. I was just trying to find a positive.

BTW, we NEED a grammar check. Or, *I* need a grammar check! LOL