Finally, this barbaric practice can end!!!!

Ah, but the point is you only believe that it wasn't the best thing for him or her. That may not be the reality.

Like I said, I believe we do the best we can. You're following the path you've chosen with regard to women's rights. I believe in and am following my own path. I have no doubt that I am 100% correct in my beliefs.

As I have no doubt I am 100% right. The only difference is that in my 100% rightness I also believe that people are committing muder on a daily basis. Its a heavy weight.

Aso for me believing it wasn't the best thing for him or her, since when is death not the best thing for someone who is healthy and has an entire life in front of them?

The point is, you don't know that there was a healthy person growing inside your belly. You can assume it. I have a very good friend from college whose birth control failed. She went to another state to have her baby and give it up for adoption. Unfortunately he was born severely handicapped. No adoptive home was available to him. She quit school and eked out a living for them on her own, as a secretary. He died last year at age 36. He had one hellofa lousy life. She feels that she has been punished for 36 years. It's not that unusual an occurrence.

You keep saying silly arguments. I am not sure what part of my opinion or my experience you find silly. I guess you will need to point this part out to me.

If you actually read my post you would see that I did "point that part out to you." Let me clarify. In a previous post Lisah argued that "for everyone like you, there is someone who was very sure that an abortion was the right thing for her, and a law preventing her from doing that would be as wrong."

In response to that you stated that for Lisah to say that is wrong, because "you are positive that there are people out there who feel that they have every reason and right to kill other adult people."

That is a silly argument. Your response includes the assumption that abortion is killing a person. But that is the very issue that people disagree about.

So, it is silly and circular for you to attempt to support your argument by presenting as fact the very question that is at the center of the entire controversy.

Let me give you an example.

It is perfectly reasonable, for example, for you to argue that a fetus is a human being because of the following various scientific and religious reasons.

In contrast, it is silly to argue that a fetus is a human being because if you kill one you are killing a human being. That is just silly.

No....the sex was irresponsible, because I was in no position to deal with the consequences responsibly if the the birth control had failed, which it did. I am not going to blame the birth control. It was not the pills fault. it was my fault, my actions, and I am responsible for those actions.

Yet I feel the choice you made is one of the responsible ways to deal with consequences. You did not bring an unwanted child into the world and did not become a mother before you were ready. Even though you feel that these decisions were coerced, others may see them both as very responsible decisions. I'm truly sorry that you don't see it that way and live with regrets.

I do not see living with the consequences of your actions as punishment. If that were the case then everything I do that results in a difficult reaction would be deemed a punishment. If pregnancy is a "punishment" in someone's eyes, then they should not be having sex, period. Birth control has faults. I can guarantee you that. If someone chooses to have sex they must be ready for all aspects of the end results, one of those being a baby. It does not mean you have to keep and raise that baby, but it should not mean that the baby must bear the brunt of your irresponsibility.

As for me feeling abortion was bad, I honestly did not have clear feelings either way. I was young, stupid, still trying to become educated, thinking i knew everything and really knowing nothing. One of the hardest things for me to face when i became pregnant was knowing right then and there that I knew NOTHING. At that time I did not look at it as killing from a political standpoint or a religious standpoint. What I did know is what a mother feels. I had a life, inside my belly. It was mine, my baby, a part of my Rob and I, and that it already had a heatbeat and brainwaves. it was feeding from me, and relied on me to care for it. And I was snuffing that little life out.

I'm confused. Did you feel at the time that abortion was the wrong decision, and still went through with it? Or did you come to feel that way later? What do you think your decision would have been had you just been given information and told to go home and think about it? Without the lectures and scare tactics, would you have continued the pregnancy or gone through with the abortion?

The rest of your statements about consequences and punishments seem to be not borne of your experience, but rather your convictions about the rights of fetuses. As has been said repeatedly, we don't all share those convictions. I knew what a mother feels, too, and I came quite independently to the decision to terminate that pregnancy. Should I have had that choice removed because YOU feel differently about the "rights" of a potential baby?

Rabid pro-lifers seem to think that they can reduce the occurrence of what they see as murder by passing some laws, but this is the utmost fallacy. Abortion has been around as long as sex has, and a law or two will NEVER change that. What we as a civilized society should be doing is supporting and protecting women from unscrupulous monsters on either side who take advantage of them. Abortion is a reality, and to drive it underground would be the worst thing we could possibly do to our daughters.

I was unhappy about the failure of my birth control and unhappy about having an abortion as a result of this. I did not want to have an abortion but I had even less desire to carry a pregnancy to term. I have never had a maternal drive and I saw no reason to commit my physical, emotional and financial energies for a nine-month period to what was still merely a division of cells at the point when I had my abortion. Though my reasoning may sound cold-blooded I can also tell you that the day of my abortion was not one of the high-lights of my life. Nobody except a fool wants an abortion.

If you actually read my post you would see that I did "point that part out to you." Let me clarify. In a previous post Lisah argued that "for everyone like you, there is someone who was very sure that an abortion was the right thing for her, and a law preventing her from doing that would be as wrong."

In response to that you stated that for Lisah to say that is wrong, because "you are positive that there are people out there who feel that they have every reason and right to kill other adult people."

That is a silly argument. Your response includes the assumption that abortion is killing a person. But that is the very issue that people disagree about.

So, it is silly and circular for you to attempt to support your argument by presenting as fact the very question that is at the center of the entire controversy.

Let me give you an example.

It is perfectly reasonable, for example, for you to argue that a fetus is a human being because of the following various scientific and religious reasons.

In contrast, it is silly to argue that a fetus is a human being because if you kill one you are killing a human being. That is just silly.

So my thinking that abortion is killing a baby and using it as an argument is silly. Because it is my opinion and it differs from yours. If you reread my post to lisah I did not state that she was wrong. I told her that there were lots of people that agreed with her, as well as a lot of people that agree with me. The fact that i bring in "for instances" to support my argument, whether you agree with them or not, is in no way silly.

Yet I feel the choice you made is one of the responsible ways to deal with consequences. You did not bring an unwanted child into the world and did not become a mother before you were ready. Even though you feel that these decisions were coerced, others may see them both as very responsible decisions. I'm truly sorry that you don't see it that way and live with regrets.

I'm confused. Did you feel at the time that abortion was the wrong decision, and still went through with it? Or did you come to feel that way later? What do you think your decision would have been had you just been given information and told to go home and think about it? Without the lectures and scare tactics, would you have continued the pregnancy or gone through with the abortion?

The rest of your statements about consequences and punishments seem to be not borne of your experience, but rather your convictions about the rights of fetuses. As has been said repeatedly, we don't all share those convictions. I knew what a mother feels, too, and I came quite independently to the decision to terminate that pregnancy. Should I have had that choice removed because YOU feel differently about the "rights" of a potential baby?

Rabid pro-lifers seem to think that they can reduce the occurrence of what they see as murder by passing some laws, but this is the utmost fallacy. Abortion has been around as long as sex has, and a law or two will NEVER change that. What we as a civilized society should be doing is supporting and protecting women from unscrupulous monsters on either side who take advantage of them. Abortion is a reality, and to drive it underground would be the worst thing we could possibly do to our daughters.

I respect you view on my choice being the most responsible. I feel it was a rash decision to an irresponsible act. Its pretty plain and simple. do not have sex unless you are certain you will not have children.

I did feel i was doing something wrong, but at the time I was so confused, being manipulated, called frequently and coerced, and at two times under medication. I was not thinking clearly, and was being moved through with the rest of the girls. If I had been given information and allowed to think about it for a long time I would have had more time to talk with my family, my boyfriend, and i KNOW i would have come to the decision to have have it done.

Abortion has been around forever, but at MUCH lower rates. Should we say that in other case, like molestation, it happens so if we regulate it and counsel those that wish to commit it then we will be a better society? Maybe that is what we can use all the unwanted children for.

But I can use a term from Marjon here...that would be silly. Because that would be awful to submit innocent children to something so heinous.

So my thinking that abortion is killing a baby and using it as an argument is silly. Because it is my opinion and it differs from yours. If you reread my post to lisah I did not state that she was wrong. I told her that there were lots of people that agreed with her, as well as a lot of people that agree with me. The fact that i bring in "for instances" to support my argument, whether you agree with them or not, is in no way silly.

I have a question for you. Do you believe that if abortion is allowed to remain legal, then they may as well allow adults to go around killing each other any time they want to, because, after all, that would be exactly the same as abortion. Do you believe that? Just curious.

I was unhappy about the failure of my birth control and unhappy about having an abortion as a result of this. I did not want to have an abortion but I had even less desire to carry a pregnancy to term. I have never had a maternal drive and I saw no reason to commit my physical, emotional and financial energies for a nine-month period to what was still merely a division of cells at the point when I had my abortion. Though my reasoning may sound cold-blooded I can also tell you that the day of my abortion was not one of the high-lights of my life. Nobody except a fool wants an abortion.

I completely understand what you are saying. And in your point of view this was the best choice. But can I ask, if you thought it was just a division of cells at the point that you had it done, why it was so difficult for you?

I have a question for you. Do you believe that if abortion is allowed to remain legal, then they may as well allow adults to go around killing each other any time they want to, because, after all, that would be exactly the same as abortion. Do you believe that? Just curious.

No! One bad deed does not allow another. The few useless killings of innocent people the better. In fact I think that our laws are not harsh enough for most offenders. When I murderer can get out of jail in 7 years, but some car theifs can be locked up for 20? We need to lock those that kill up for life.

Lives are precious, all of them.

No! One bad deed does not allow another. The few useless killings of innocent people the better. In fact I think that our laws are not harsh enough for most offenders. When I murderer can get out of jail in 7 years, but some car theifs can be locked up for 20? We need to lock those that kill up for life.

Lives are precious, all of them.

But aside from the point that the less killing the better, do you believe that abortion is just like having adults going around killing each other any time they want to?

But aside from the point that the less killing the better, do you believe that abortion is just like having adults going around killing each other any time they want to?

Yes, I do. I believe that abortion is the killing of a life because it inconviniences another. Its going to cost money, take up time, make your body hurt a bit for 9 months. No one even says you have to keep the kid after. Yet it is so inconvinient to support a life for 9 months and its so much easier to just go have it vaccuumed out.

I guess I am curious as to why if someone beats the shit out of a woman while she is pregnant, and she miscarries, that person can be charged with the murder of that child. And if a woman is pregnant and goes into a bar she is warned that drinking can be fatal to the baby she is carrying. But the MOMENT that woman does not feel like being responsible for her actions any longer it is just a bunch of cells that can be simply disposed of.

I completely understand what you are saying. And in your point of view this was the best choice. But can I ask, if you thought it was just a division of cells at the point that you had it done, why it was so difficult for you?

Because, even though I am not maternal and I didn't want to follow it through, I knew that this material was unique biological material. I would have been happier not to have been placed in this position. Please understand where I am coming from. I am expressing this point of view as an atheist. I do not believe in a God, and certainly not in the Christian version.

I respect you view on my choice being the most responsible. I feel it was a rash decision to an irresponsible act. Its pretty plain and simple. do not have sex unless you are certain you will not have children.

Yet people who have had vasectomies and tubal ligations get pregnant. How sure do you want us to be?

I did feel i was doing something wrong, but at the time I was so confused, being manipulated, called frequently and coerced, and at two times under medication. I was not thinking clearly, and was being moved through with the rest of the girls. If I had been given information and allowed to think about it for a long time I would have had more time to talk with my family, my boyfriend, and i KNOW i would have come to the decision to have have it done.

To have the baby? Or the abortion?

Abortion has been around forever, but at MUCH lower rates.

Lower rates than what? No one knows how many underground abortions were performed before legalization, precisely because they were underground. They are impossible to count.

Should we say that in other case, like molestation, it happens so if we regulate it and counsel those that wish to commit it then we will be a better society? Maybe that is what we can use all the unwanted children for.

But I can use a term from Marjon here...that would be silly. Because that would be awful to submit innocent children to something so heinous.

And once again we come around to the fact that MOST people see a fundamental difference between an early-stage fetus inside an adult woman and a living, breathing separate human being. It's those people I believe will prevent the more extreme view--yours--from becoming the law of the land.