Finally, this barbaric practice can end!!!!

So why are we up so late on a Friday anyway?

Tomorrow is DH's birthday. I'm surprising him by making a from scratch, pineapple upside down cake (with fresh pineapple). I couldn't get started until he went to bed. Call me ambitious, or masochistic. I just finished folding in 4 egg whites "beaten stiff but not dry". ???. Whatever, keep your fingers crossed. Maybe I'll take a pic if it comes out pretty.

I have just gotten into the habit of staying up late, since I had to the week before I gave my seminar presentation in order to finish it (I'm horrible about procrastinating). And it's Friday, which means I can sleep late tomorrow.

That cake sounds wonderful. It's been forever since I had a pineapple upside down cake. Now you've got me craving it!

Hey, Oh Man Wheetsin I love pineapple upside down cake! Yumbo.:hungry: Can you post a pic of it? I will just proceed to lick my screen.:biggrin1: Susannah

(I'm still up. I went past that breaking point where you stop being tired).

I will see if I can snag a pic tomorrow before everyone digs in. That sucker has a full cup of butter in it - 6 tbl in the sugary topping, and the rest mixed into the wet ingredients. It smells divine. Folding in the egg whites gave it a really interesting texture. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a texture in a cake before.

Just throwing a question out there. If clinical abortions were outlawed, do you guys think we'd see a decrease in the number of abortions that occur? (Let's say that hypothetically we could account for all abortions, legal and not - so the possibility that they could occur untracked is removed).

Or do you think we'd just see a decrease in abortions done in controlled and reasonably safe medical surroundings, vs. the hanger in a bathtub, chop shop in someone's basement, or women who repeatedly bang themselves against the backs of chairs?

Well in that case let's make it legal to sell crack and use it.Then we can

get tax revenue off it and by your statement, there will be a lot less drug addicts.

Pain meds are kicking in again.

Just throwing a question out there. If clinical abortions were outlawed, do you guys think we'd see a decrease in the number of abortions that occur? (Let's say that hypothetically we could account for all abortions, legal and not - so the possibility that they could occur untracked is removed).

Or do you think we'd just see a decrease in abortions done in controlled and reasonably safe medical surroundings, vs. the hanger in a bathtub, chop shop in someone's basement, or women who repeatedly bang themselves against the backs of chairs?

The saddest situation is when a woman can't get pregnant in the future because of a previous abortion (one of the complications of some types of procedures is future infertility or an increased miscarriage rate).

If clinical abortions are outlawed, we will see a decrease in SAFE abortions. If insurance can no longer cover elective abortions, we will see a huge increase in black-market negotiations and criminal traffic of providers and patients. The risks of outlawing abortions are vast. There would be MANY MORE women who become unable to carry future pregnancies after amateur or untrained abortions. How on earth can anyone see this as a preferable state of affairs?

I'm with Wheetsin and Laurend in not caring why someone wants an abortion. IT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS. The fact that a procedure is abused (and will continue to be, legal or not) by some extreme practitioners doesn't mean the procedure is itself immoral. This decision has outlawed a procedure used only in a tiny fraction of situations, and only when it is the least horrible of several horrible options. All that's been done is to narrow the medical options for people in dire situations. What does anyone think the chances are that this decision will result in any actual healthy babies being born? I'll be watching for that study. Educating women as to birth control AND how to recognize pregnancies as soon as possible would do more to prevent late abortions than this law will.

And I too have little sympathy for women who somehow don't realize that an abortion means terminating a pregnancy. As in, there will be no baby born. Obviously women should examine all their options and feelings beforehand, but abortions in professional clinical settings are safe, fast, outpatient procedures and there is no reason they should be made into huge life-altering events. Many women (me included) who found themselves inadvertently pregnant have had early abortions and were grateful for the ability to keep their lives on track.

I hope and pray that saner heads will prevail and women's right to self-determination will be solidified in future court decisions.

As I have previously mentioned in this thread I had an abortion at the age of 32 when my birth control failed. I had been sexually active since I was 19 and knew from when I was small that I never wanted children but was unable to find a doctor who would agree to sterilize me. I was certainly someone who was careful about using birth control.

I have always been pro choice and I became pro-abortion the moment I learned that I needed one. I have never, ever regretted this decision although my choice did make my mother sad.

The procedure was performed in a hospital in France and was done quickly and efficiently and cheaply. The medical staff were women. It was, however, a physically painful procedure. While I was there I asked them if there was any chance that they would sterilize me. They were shocked at my request and explained to me that sterilization is illegal in France.

Alexandra: Nicely said.

I doubt that there have been any legitimate studies conducted because it would be nearly impossible to document illegal abortions, but it only makes sense that if a woman were to be rendered sterile from abortion (which must only happen in a tiny fraction of cases) the likelihood of that would be far greater with "backstreet" abortions than with medically supervised abortions.

The horror stories that are often used to scare women into thinking that abortions are unsafe, painful and possibly that they will cause sterility are simply scare tactics used by people who wish to impose their will upon others. Most abortions do not case sterility. Most abortions are uncomplicated. Most abortions do not cause extreme pain. My guess would also be that the large majority of women who are under enough duress to choose to abort a pregnancy, are not women who will regret their decision. They are women who are thankful that their lives are not forever changed by an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy.

Of course there can be complications to any medical procedure. Of course there are women who regret their choice, but that can be true whether a pregnant women chooses to give birth to a baby or one who chooses to terminate a pregnancy.

There are so many variables, so many reasons, so many personalities, so many situations that cause women to consider abortion. It is just not compassionate or sane for someone else to make that decision for a woman. It is illegal for people to make that decision for a woman and that is as it should be.

What if the government decided that the country is over populated and that women MUST abort pregnancies? It has happened in at least one country. It could, one day, happen here. How would those people who are against abortions feel about being compelled to have one? Outraged? Personally assaulted? Helpless? Well, women who believe they absolutely NEED an abortion, for whatever reason, feel similarly about being told that they may not have one.

I repeat my earlier stance on this. Anti-choice people are going to keep on until they cause Americans to rise up against them at the voting booths.

Green, I defer to you on the pain part. I have no idea what kind of procedure was used in France for you. I have had a D&C, which when I asked, was told that it is much like the abortion procedure. Some anesthetic was used and I did not feel the procedure. Afterwards there was cramping, somewhat heavier than during my menstural cycle. Uncomfortable, but not unbearable. They gave me a mild over the counter pain killer which took the edge off.

Perhaps I have been under an incorrect impression all these years about how painful an abortion procedure is. I only know personally of this experience and of those of friends of mine who have had abortions and who said the pain was not extreme. BTW, none of the women I know who have had the procedure regret it. They all are thankful that they had the choice between a relatively simple procedure and a lifetime of regret.

I had always suffered from horrible menstrual cramps and while I, too, had a D&C (I think) I ended up with the worse menstrual cramps ever. None of the other women who had abortions the same day I did had any pain, by the way. I was a real mess, moaning from pain, calling for the nurse to give me pain meds and vomitting from the anaesthetic. I overheard one of the other women asking what was wrong with me....:phanvan

Poor Green!! If you were throwing up, I'd think that the physical force of that would cause additional pain in the area. Makes me want to curl up just thinking about it. Sounds like Green doesn't do anesthetic well. I too used to have very painful menstrual cramps and often wound up tossing my cookies on the first day and then lying in bed for hours, curled up with a heating pad and cup of hot tea that me mum would provide. I sure miss that precious woman.

Yup, now whenever I am about to be knocked out I tell the doctors that I will vomit and they feed me some sort of Gravol intravenously. Puking post lap-band would have been disasterous!!

As for menstrual cramps - ugh! - it was a good thing that I went through menopause when I was 41.

Well in that case let's make it legal to sell crack and use it.Then we can

get tax revenue off it and by your statement, there will be a lot less drug addicts.

And what statement was that, exactly? I asked a hypothetical question. Please share what 'statement" you are referring to, so I can respond.

And if you're referring to the hypothetical question I asked, what you say doesn't even make sense. I asked if the rate of abortions would decrease, or is just the rate of safe abrtions would decrease (paraphrasing). How is that, in any way, related to tax revenue from drug addicts???

Hey how was the cake? Yuuuuummmmmmyyyyyy!!! I haven't made on e in years, I think it will be on my list of last foods (but only a bite or so, I'll take the rest to work).

Someone PM'd this to me, not wanting to post it herself. I have her approval to re-post it here and am taking out anything that would identify her.

I had an abortion when I was 19 and it killed me. It was the worst mistake I could have ever made. And I lived with the pain and torture of it for a long time. All the while trying to get pregnant with my husband's and my first child after marriage. ([husband's name] was the father to the aborted baby, but we were not married, and when I spoke to the nurse at my doctor's office she told me that "it would be a shame to force him to marry you for the baby, you'll never know if he really loves you") It was not until I let go, helped with some post-abortion counseling, and truly opened myself up to God and asked to be cleansed of that sin that I finally got pregnant with [daughter] and the pregnancy stuck. We got [son] 15 months later. He was a happy surprise. I do not believe in accidents any longer. He was certainly not planned, and it was hard having pregnancies back to back, but I love him more than life itself.

One thing that I found interesting... When I went for my appt i got put into a room with a bunch of other girls. We were given valium pills and made to sit and wait for our turn. There were these three women in there that were very vocal. One was young, and was so happy that she was able to do this. That she was "not ready for a child and needed to complete school". One was a woman in her 30's and "she has an abortion once a year. She has an allergy to latex and cannot take the pill because she smokes. So her and her husband utilize abortions as birth control" Another kept complaining about the "pro-lifers" near the street and how awufl they were. That they were just harming others by preaching to traffic. I observed them, and while waiting I got very upset. I starting crying so much that I hyperventilated. The doctor told me to leave and come back the next day. The next day I went through the whole routine again, took my valium and lo-and-behold the same three women were in the room. I was so angered, but the valium really takes the edge off of you, and i was so upset about being in there. It was total confusion.

I just thought I would share how the clinic I went to was certainly deceptive and mind controlling up until the very end. Its very sad that baby killing is such a booming business. I fell to my knees and thanked God when I heard the decision on partial birth abortions. Its one step in the right direction.

In case any of you skimmed that story, what happened was there were "ringers" in the abortion clinic placed there to be very verbal about their stories so that women would be convinced not to leave the clinic. I've never heard a story like that, but I don't doubt it's true.