Finally, this barbaric practice can end!!!!

Wow Marjon, I am quite surprised at the hatred you have here. This is quite extreme, bra, and I have been able to discuss this very calmly and professionally with everyone else here. Why so much venom?

If you feel it is pointless to dicuss this with me because you cannot understand my point of view, then that is fine. Back out of the debate. There are plenty of others willing to discuss this like adults.

You really can't win an argument by simply declaring that I am full of hatred. There is nothing I have said that even comes close to that. If you don't want to answer my posts, feel free to ignore them.

You really can't win an argument by simply declaring that I am full of hatred. There is nothing I have said that even comes close to that. If you don't want to answer my posts, feel free to ignore them.

ROFL So I am confused...Do you want to debate, or not? I thought your other post stated you were done. I am happy to debate you. If you debate like a gentleman and a scholar. Otherwise you are not worth my time. If your posts towards me continue to point out personal issues and not the points of the debate, there will be no debate with me. I follow the rules of game.

ROFL So I am confused...Do you want to debate, or not? I thought your other post stated you were done. I am happy to debate you. If you debate like a gentleman and a scholar. Otherwise you are not worth my time. If your posts towards me continue to point out personal issues and not the points of the debate, there will be no debate with me. I follow the rules of game.

To be honest with you, I think I'm not worth your time.

I am sure you are right.

But different people have different lines they draw in the sand. Who's line do we follow? I have no idea what scientific test could be done to prove that the baby is more than just a fetus. If I knew I would have created it and my paper would be in every paper on the planet.

Your first question is exactly what we are all asking. Since there is no way to determine whose line we should follow, we have to trust ourselves to come up with the right answer for ourselves. Why can't you do that for me?

But if it comes around, and you are alive, and someone officially tells you "The baby you had and aborted was a baby, not just a fetus" would you have remorse? Or mourn for the loss of life? Would you try to get others to stop from having their abortions?

Is that what happened to you?

The fetus is a FUTURE baby, we all agree on that. But I fail to see how anyone could change the fact of a fetus being a future baby into it being an actual, here-and-now baby. They are different stages on a developmental timeline that can't be simply compressed into nothing.

The only way I could have been shocked and changed by the statement you describe above is if I didn't understand I was terminating my pregnancy by having an abortion. Which, of course, I did.

Your first question is exactly what we are all asking. Since there is no way to determine whose line we should follow, we have to trust ourselves to come up with the right answer for ourselves. Why can't you do that for me?

Is that what happened to you?

The fetus is a FUTURE baby, we all agree on that. But I fail to see how anyone could change the fact of a fetus being a future baby into it being an actual, here-and-now baby. They are different stages on a developmental timeline that can't be simply compressed into nothing.

The only way I could have been shocked and changed by the statement you describe above is if I didn't understand I was terminating her pregnancy by having an abortion. Which, of course, I did.

I don't really think we will ever have a decision from anyone as to what stage a fetus becomes a baby. We will all have different points of view. But the tough part is that its not like debating how long to bake cookies. One side's view, if correct, means that thousands of lives are being taken every day. Its certainly a hot topic, and one that will be debated for a long time to come.

For me I can only do my part by counselling girls pre and post abortion, and trying to get the pre abortion girls to see that there are other alternatives. And continue to sponsor women's groups that provide care and support to the women and girls who decide to carry the baby to term. I will also vote for my representatives, and president, as well as vote for any bill I can that helps the causes that I belong to. That is all any of us can do. If you feel a certain way, then do something about it. No matter what you might think abo9ut me, or my views, you must respect the fact that I am doing what I need to to make my voice heard.

For me I can only do my part by counselling girls pre and post abortion, and trying to get the pre abortion girls to see that there are other alternatives. And continue to sponsor women's groups that provide care and support to the women and girls who decide to carry the baby to term. I will also vote for my representatives, and president, as well as vote for any bill I can that helps the causes that I belong to. That is all any of us can do. If you feel a certain way, then do something about it. No matter what you might think abo9ut me, or my views, you must respect the fact that I am doing what I need to to make my voice heard.

I most certainly do respect your views and your acts. And though I only know you slightly, I am confident that you provide counseling with more compassion and openness than what you received. As you know so well, women who are seeking answers when they are unexpectedly pregnant deserve respect too. Right?

I have to ask whether you include abortion as a plausible alternative when you counsel women. If not, I don't consider your actions any more ethical than the nurse's. In both cases (if you don't include abortion), you are taking advantage of a woman's emotions and confusion over what the appropriate actions are. To me, demonizing abortion to a newly pregnant, confused girl or woman is just as bad as manipulating her into have the abortion.

Yes, very much so. One of the things that drives me to provide the best care and support possible is knowing that someone might not go that extra mile for someone in desperate need. There are ways to deal with an unexpected pregnancy. Other than resorting to aborting the baby. There are plenty of homes, programs, schooling for those who get kicked out of their school, plus tons of financial support from private charities (not government programs) that will help them pay for any medical care needed. For some reason christians have been painted to be these wild, baby crazed picketing fanatics, when we are for the most part very compassionate forgiving accomodating and respectful individuals.

I have to ask whether you include abortion as a plausible alternative when you counsel women. If not, I don't consider your actions any more ethical than the nurse's. In both cases (if you don't include abortion), you are taking advantage of a woman's emotions and confusion over what the appropriate actions are. To me, demonizing abortion to a newly pregnant, confused girl or woman is just as bad as manipulating her into have the abortion.

Women who call the lines and groups that I have been apart of KNOW they are calling and visiting an pro-life group. My practices are completely ethical. We do not take advantage of anyone, nor do we manipulate women.

In my case, the nurse who manipulated me did so meeting me in a completely nutral setting, and taking advantage of my not knowing anything.

there is no comparrison between the two of us. So I guess you must deem me ethical.

Women who call the lines and groups that I have been apart of KNOW they are calling and visiting an pro-life group. My practices are completely ethical. We do not take advantage of anyone, nor do we manipulate women.

In my case, the nurse who manipulated me did so meeting me in a completely nutral setting, and taking advantage of my not knowing anything.

there is no comparrison between the two of us. So I guess you must deem me ethical.

Really? Do you advertise as specifically "pro-life"? Or do you advertise (like most pro-life agencies I've seen) as "pregnancy counseling"?

And just like these women supposedly know and acknowledge that they are calling a pro-life counseling service, you knew you were going to an abortion clinic. So I guess you weren't as manipulated as you want to believe.

The manipulation with me started at my PCP's office. Not at an abortion clinic. And if you want me to say that I was responsible, I have. I have over and over. Playing this card is just beating a dead horse.

As to the point on advertising, most of the places I have been involved in advertise as "Abortion Alternative" or "Post Abortion Counselling". Is this clear enough for your POV?

The manipulation with me started at my PCP's office. Not at an abortion clinic.

Yes, it did. But you could have said "stop" at any time. She may have manipulated you into going to the abortion clinic, but she had no impact on you going through with it.

Playing this card is just beating a dead horse.

And yet you still push responsibility off on that nurse. The fact is, you were an adult. You had the responsibility to educate yourself about the options that were available to you. You didn't, and now you regret the action you took. Is that the fault of the nurse? No.

And I am a firm believer in counseling women in all options available to them, whether or not you agree with those options. Who knows, abortion might be the best decision for one of them.

Yes, it did. But you could have said "stop" at any time. She may have manipulated you into going to the abortion clinic, but she had no impact on you going through with it.

And yet you still push responsibility off on that nurse. The fact is, you were an adult. You had the responsibility to educate yourself about the options that were available to you. You didn't, and now you regret the action you took. Is that the fault of the nurse? No.

And I am a firm believer in counseling women in all options available to them, whether or not you agree with those options. Who knows, abortion might be the best decision for one of them.

I have not pushed responsibility off on this nurse completely. I have said (again and again) that I accept responsibility for what I did. I asked my almighty God for forgiveness, as well as the father of the baby. But I was also a confused teenager, and made the wrong decision to have sex before we were ready to have a child. The nurse, a manipulative woman only set on getting her finders fee, saw how confused i was and took advantage of it. Are you saying that people who fall prey to scam artists are not victims but actually at fault because of them willingly following along with the scam?

When in a doctor's office it is the responsibility of the nurse and doctor to provide all of the options to the patient so that petient can make an informed decision. I do not expect a counsellor at an abortion clinic to offer information about adoption. that is a business and a privately run clinic. Just as I do not expect an anti-abortion center to counsel a woman about having an abortion as an option. Its a privately run charity.

Are you saying that people who fall prey to scam artists are not victims but actually at fault because of them willingly following along with the scam?

No, I'm not. But Funny, you were not scammed! You knew she was taking you to an abortion clinic! What did you expect was going to happen, the doctors getting down on one knee and begging you to make a different decision? I can understand you thinking you were scammed if you thought she was taking you to an OB/GYN to have an ultrasound or something, but you knew she was taking you for an abortion. She did not scam you.

When in a doctor's office it is the responsibility of the nurse and doctor to provide all of the options to the patient so that petient can make an informed decision.

There are obviously only two options when it comes to a pregnancy. You either have the baby, or you don't. That's freakin' obvious. No one needed to tell you that. Doctors don't care whether you decide to have the baby and give it up for adoption or have the baby and keep it. It isn't any of their business, it's a personal decision for you to make. Passing blame for your decision off on the nurse, by telling yourself "but she manipulated me into it" is crap. She could have told you anything, but at the end of the day, the decision was 100% up to you and you alone. She had no bearing on it at all.