Finally, this barbaric practice can end!!!!

You can't compare amounts that people give. Maybe the person who gives $5 gives that much because that is all that they can afford to give, while the person who gave $5,000 could have given ten times that. Who is more generous, the person who gave all they could or the person who didn't? In my mind, the person who gave only $5 was more generous. The amount doesn't matter, it's the intent behind it that matters. I am more trustful of the person who says "I volunteer and I give money and time to charities" than a person who says "I give $5,000 here and $15,000 there and I volunteer at this place and that place and this other place", because it seems to me that they are looking for praise. People shouldn't be doing charity work for praise. If they are, they aren't being altruistic, they are getting something in return even if the only benefit is to their egos.

And by the way, Funny, I apologize for the tone in some of my earlier posts. I have been under a lot of stress lately, and sometimes certain topics really set me off, abortion debate (and evolution and religion, but those are different threads) being one of them. I can get a little single-minded at times. I still don't agree with you, but I probably should have gone about it in a different way.

No worries Lauren. I appreciate the apology, and love a good debate that is civil and thoughtfull.

 

I look for no praise from the deeds I do. My reward is gotten in the journey and the experience. I have been in this debate before (charity and giving, and who does it more...the conservatives or liberals.) and it goes one of two ways. If you do not disclose the amount given, you are hiding the amount and the truth to your charities. If you disclose you are looking for praise. I do not care what people think my motivation is truly. I do it because it is my duty as someone who can give back to do so. And that is my motivation. And Rob and I truly enjoy it. Personally I LOVE working with the sea turtles. those little buggers are cuter than a kitten!

I'm a little late for this discussion because I've been having computer problems. But my solution for the abortion problem is that anti-abortionists should simply pay women who are denied an abortion for having the baby as a surrogate mother. I think the going rate should be about 1/2 to 1 million dollars plus medical expenses since having babies is very dangerous to the mother's health. After the baby is born, the anti-abortionists should adopt the baby and raise it. That would be another, oh say, $100,000. This would relieve the birth mother and help the baby. I think that people who want to punish a mother should be willing to ante up and take the unwanted kids into their own homes. Otherwise, their argument is specious because they want a lot of unwanted kids to be born for their own reasons, not the reasons of the mother. Her reasons for abortion may be quite specific and reasonable, but the anti-abortionists want to regulate her body. Though I am long past the age of having children, I still don't think other people should determine what should be done with one's body unless those people are willing to pay the price. What I see too often is retribution for having an unwanted baby. Therefore, the only reasonable alternative is for anti-abortionists to adopt and pay for unwanted children. Therefore, women who are bearing unwanted children should be considered surrogate mothers and paid accordingly. In my opinion, this would put paid to the abortion debate. Long live men who want to rule women's lives.

lethea g: Many women died from childbirth before it became the norm to have medical help. But just because we rely on doctors and nurses these days doesn't mean that pregnancies go without major problems even now.

 

My darling daughter had complications last year. She is a very healthy, no-meat eating, no smoking, no drinking, no drugs (of any kind) person. There was no known medical reason that they could give us, for her to have the experience of going through 9 months of pregnancy and then developing complications just before her due date and deliver her baby, Jake, dead. I wouldn't make too light of the risks associated with pregnancy. My daughter won't be having any more children.

 

The same experience of her baby being born dead happened two years ago to one of my good friends daughter. Fortunately, her daughter was able to get pregnant again and has a healthy little baby girl. But I can't tell you how miserably traumatic this has been for her family and mine.

 

Pregnancy and childbirth continue to present many risks for women and their babies.

Pregnancy and childbirth continue to present many risks for women and their babies.

And these risks go up with poverty and ethnic group. An African-American woman is four times as likely to die from pregnancy-related issues than a white woman.

I was just looking this up, and it is amazing how many women die pregnancy-related deaths in the world today. From what I can find, the chance of a woman dying from a pregnancy-related issue is something like 1 in 10,000 in the USA, 1 in 2,400 in Europe (I think Eastern Europe), and 1 in 16 (16!) in sub-Saharan Africa.

I would like to put my two cents in on the abortion issue. It is such a sensitive issue to me because I was adopted. Alomost every day I think that if my birth mother was a selfish woman I would not be here. I thank the Lord that she did not make me pay for her mistake, instead she gave me life and a better life than she knew she could provide by placing me for adoption-ps my mom and dad are awsome people!!! Millions of couples in the US cannot have children and the waiting list for adoption is several years. We are so use to a quick fix and an instant gratification that most teenagers and older women dont think twice about ending that precious life inside of them. Also not to mention the long term physical and emtional effects it has on the mother who aborted the baby, I have a friend that had an abortion and she says she regrets it and she has to live with that everday of her life. I am so thankful my birthmother loved me enough to give me a chance eventhough it was an inconvience for her.

Millions of couples in the US cannot have children and the waiting list for adoption is several years.

There are thousands of children waiting to be adopted. They just happen to either be too old for people that want little babies, too sick or handicapped, or the wrong color. It isn't "fashionable" for a white couple to have a black child. They want either white babies or Asian babies (or black babies from Africa).

Oooh, good timing, because we were JUST talking about adoption. One of my friends is in the process of adopting a brother and sister from Russia. Their biggest obstacle is MONEY. Their travel expenses, INS paperwork, etc. aside - the actual adoption fees they owe to whatever agency it is in Russia equal about $12,000. She was telling me in the US adoptions can cost between 10k - 18k for one child, and that this doesn't include the legal fees.

I've never looked into adopting so I can't confirm nor verify these fees... but IF they are accurate - WOW. It's a shame that being able to provide for the child isn't enough.

One of my dear friends and his wife adopted from Vladivostok, in Russia a few years ago and those fees are close to what they paid. Add in flight and hotel, etc and it was almost $20K, but in the US they were looking at that as a bare minimum for a starting point, let alone travel and then the wait.

I would like to put my two cents in on the abortion issue. It is such a sensitive issue to me because I was adopted. Alomost every day I think that if my birth mother was a selfish woman I would not be here. I thank the Lord that she did not make me pay for her mistake, instead she gave me life and a better life than she knew she could provide by placing me for adoption-ps my mom and dad are awsome people!!! Millions of couples in the US cannot have children and the waiting list for adoption is several years. We are so use to a quick fix and an instant gratification that most teenagers and older women dont think twice about ending that precious life inside of them. Also not to mention the long term physical and emtional effects it has on the mother who aborted the baby, I have a friend that had an abortion and she says she regrets it and she has to live with that everday of her life. I am so thankful my birthmother loved me enough to give me a chance eventhough it was an inconvience for her.

I was also adopted, and I have always said that I am glad my mother had the courage and love for me to carry me to term and to give me away because she knew she couldn't raise me the way she would want to. But even having said that, I also recognize that this was before Roe v. Wade and if she could have aborted, she probably would have, and that's okay too. It would have been her choice. I cannot imagine the long term effects of giving up your baby that you carried for nine months and felt kicking and went through hours of pain and labor to give birth to. And if you had to have a c-section and then gave your child up for adoption, everytime you looked down you'd see that scar. It takes a much stronger woman than what I am sure we raise today to be able to do that. Talk about long term effects.

Love is weakness, and there are always those looking to turn a profit on someones weakness. Or even recover monies spent over past years. Sad thing is, if a child isn't adopted, the agency could just try and pad the fee for other adoptions to externalize costs - like at the pound.

I agree, being able to provide should be enough.

Sorry for the moody post. I need to find some happier subscribed threads. I hear the penis thread was hoppin'.

I would like to put my two cents in on the abortion issue. It is such a sensitive issue to me because I was adopted. Alomost every day I think that if my birth mother was a selfish woman I would not be here. I thank the Lord that she did not make me pay for her mistake, instead she gave me life and a better life than she knew she could provide by placing me for adoption-ps my mom and dad are awsome people!!! Millions of couples in the US cannot have children and the waiting list for adoption is several years. We are so use to a quick fix and an instant gratification that most teenagers and older women dont think twice about ending that precious life inside of them. Also not to mention the long term physical and emtional effects it has on the mother who aborted the baby, I have a friend that had an abortion and she says she regrets it and she has to live with that everday of her life. I am so thankful my birthmother loved me enough to give me a chance eventhough it was an inconvience for her.

ghettofarm24, you have a compelling story to tell. Your story is definitely something that a woman should consider when she is deciding whether or not to have an abortion. But as compelling as your story is, in my view it does not provide justification for forcing a woman, through legislation and potential criminal penalties, to carry the child to term.

I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of women who have abortions take the matter seriously and struggle with the types of questions raised by your story. I also have no doubt that that the overwhelming majority of women who have abortions do not do so for any sort of feminist "rite of passage" or other frivolous reason that does not reflect the gravity of the situation.

But once a woman decides, all things considered, that she needs to take this step for her own personal reasons, she absolutely must have the freedom to do so.

I realize that in your view it is simply a matter of a minor "inconvenience" to the woman to have the child, but many women consider it to be much more than that. And in any event, one way or another, it must be their choice, not the choice of others who would impose their will on her by law.

lethea g: Many women died from childbirth before it became the norm to have medical help. But just because we rely on doctors and nurses these days doesn't mean that pregnancies go without major problems even now.

My darling daughter had complications last year. She is a very healthy, no-meat eating, no smoking, no drinking, no drugs (of any kind) person. There was no known medical reason that they could give us, for her to have the experience of going through 9 months of pregnancy and then developing complications just before her due date and deliver her baby, Jake, dead. I wouldn't make too light of the risks associated with pregnancy. My daughter won't be having any more children.

The same experience of her baby being born dead happened two years ago to one of my good friends daughter. Fortunately, her daughter was able to get pregnant again and has a healthy little baby girl. But I can't tell you how miserably traumatic this has been for her family and mine.

Pregnancy and childbirth continue to present many risks for women and their babies.

My brother is a doctor. He was told in medical school that prior to the advent of modern medicine, and this would include the availability of antibiotics (pharmaceuticals which were developed in the 1940s and only started to be available for general medical use in the early 1950s, I believe), more women died in childbirth or of childbirth complications than men died in wars. This certainly indicates that up until the advent of the 20th century pregnancy and childbirth certainly was risky business for many women and that these women did indeed die. That many women are unable to have vaginal births and must have Caesarians would back this up. Figure that you are going to have to have a Caesarian birth without the back-up of modern technology, eh! The baby might survive but you won't. You will either bleed out or develop an unstoppable infection or both.