"Savage Nation"

[marjon9 6]

The key point that needs to be made about radical Islam is that our actions are making many more of them. I'm not saying that George W. Bush created all radical Islamists, there are many more thanks to his policies. Muslims are human beings who are, essentially, exactly like us. All humans are fundamentally the same, with an interest in dignity and security. Our arrogant, greedy, militaristic policies in their homelands are making more and more and more of them turn radical. Due to the war in Iraq, there are millions more profoundly angry people who are willing to die to kill YOU. Yet you support the policies of the Bush administration, while claiming to be "fighting terrorism."

[mousecrazy 2]

Hey, I think there is a pattern.

When nothing else seems available, a personal attack will distract the debator from the topic!

I thought the alcoholism comment was out of line, unless there was some direct knowledge of such fact. I see now that was not the case.

It is necessarily frustrating to spar with the other side. It would be less so if the participants would focus more on topics and less on "certain-people" hatred. Oh, and perhaps less Christian-hatred would be nice, too. I'd hate to see what would happen if atheist-hatred was as openly discussed.

Not to say that problems with religion are off base as a discussion...but some posts are definitely slanted toward hatred.

[mousecrazy 2]

If academic research is too dry...and yours is impeccable, Jack...those who are interested can also access several documentary films on Radical Islam as well.

Once you've heard their videos and hear the mullahs preach the message of hate and world dominion; exhorting their followers to jihad, promising to kill all infidels, and so on...you cannot believe any longer that it doesn't exist. These films were taken in the supposedly "moderate" mosques around the world, notably in the US and in England. There are few very brave spokespeople who left their mosques and are willing to speak the truth.

There is nothing to lose but your illusions...check this information out for yourself.

[TommyO 5]

Here is an interesting parralel to consider, it is true that many citizens of western countries now dislike Muslims more than ever since recent attacks by extremists on the western world. This is true in America since 9/11 and when I say America I mean all of America. The response to this violence has been more violence and as such Muslims now dislike the the western world more and more.

Violence amplifies the hatred it does not solve a thing. Hatred is being escalated and as long as violence is used hatred will continue to grow.

It may feel good to go and kick some butt especially after the terrible events of 9/11 but kicking butt will only make us feel better it will do little to solve the underlying problems. As long as there is hatred of one group by another the problem will continue.

Who's right and who's wrong is not the issue, look at Northern Ireland both sides believe that the other side is at fault and justified their actions based on this premise. The only way to start the healing was to stop the killing. There is an uneasy truce but as time goes on the wounds have begun to heal. The fighting and bombing and killing only escalated the problem.

As an observer I see in the U.S. that many good people who feel afraid and scared are having a very natural and honest reaction. They feel the need to respond in kind and then some to the violence that was perpetrated agianst them, but this reaction will only increase the risk of more attacks not lessen it.

Just my thoughts

[marjon9 6]

re: Sharai law

re: Dhimitude

I suggest before any of us leap to the conclusion about the simplistic view that "Muslims are human beings who are, essentially, exactly like us. All humans are fundamentally the same, with an interest in dignity and security. Our arrogant, greedy, militaristic policies in their homelands are making more and more and more of them turn radical."

....we need to examine what the jihadis are really all about. And I'm sorry to report to you, my 'subcutaneously gifted' Bandster buddy, you are leaving out much history and current events. You are quoting the soothing balm of a notion all of us would like to believe....if we were not facing the ascendant violent factions that have gained control of the expression of the Muslim faith.....

Delve a bit into the realm of Wabbi movement, and what THEY are saying, and what THEY want, not YOUR interpretation of what I too would like to believe....

We are confronted with a violent minority who have created problems in the world before. Last time they were so active, they occupied Spain for 700 years.

I strive to leave politics out of this discussion, and hope others can as well.

An easy place to begin is Wikipedia, ...there is 'the House of Islam" and 'the House of War'. Google any of the zillion sites on this matter.

Bat Yeor's definition:

"As for the concept of dhimmitude, it represents a behavior dictated by fear (terrorism), pacifism when aggressed, rather than resistance, servility because of cowardice and vulnerability. The origin of this concept is to be found in the condition of the Infidel people who submit to the Islamic rule without fighting in order to avoid the onslaught of jihad. By their peaceful surrender to the Islamic army, they obtained the security for their life, belongings and religion, but they had to accept a condition of inferiority, spoliation and humiliation. As they were forbidden to possess weapons and give testimony against a Muslim, they were put in a position of vulnerability and humility."

Robert Spencer author of the The Myth of Islamic Tolerance defines dhimmitude as :

Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, “protected” or “guilty” people, are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, are part of the legal superstructure that global jihadists are laboring through violence to restore everywhere in the Islamic world, and wish ultimately to impose on the entire human race.

I suppose this could be consider more poppycock....Yet I listen to what those guys are saying....and they are the ones doing the violence around the world. Even Winston Churchill had some comments to make on them in 1928....long before we got 'em riled up with Rumy and Bushco...

Listen to what Ben Laden has said in his own speeches....he is talking about how weak and contemptible the west is because of the very virtues we hold so highly...and he says thats why jehadis will win, because we have no stomach for confrontation, we have no values and we have lost our ability to fight for what we believe in....

I'm not making this up.

There are hundreds of millions of Muslims. If you feel comfortable categorizing them into some sort of violent, homogenous group that you can condemn and feel superior toward, have at it. But whatever you say about them, no rational person can fail to acknowledge that our current policies are making many more of the radical type, and making our world much less safe than it would have been had we taken an approach toward them that was a little less Neanderthal. As each month ticks away in the "war on terror," each of us is closer to the next horrendous terrorist attack. It is impossible for me to understand how anyone could believe that having American troops on the ground, breaking down the doors of people's homes, running prison torture chambers, and occasionally raping and murdering civilians, is helping to make us safe against radical Islamists. You are all obviously intelligent people, what happened to you?

[BJean 16]

Hey gang, Jack's the one who made the humorous comment about being someone who used to tip a few and was a Democrat until Clinton helped him see the light. (or some verbage to that effect.)

I thought it was funny and was letting him know I got the joke. I guess no one else thought it was cute the way that he phrased it like I did, they just feel sorry for him for giving up his Democratic ways. I understand.

You guys know that I am a bit passionate about love, peace, and the American way. The way of freedom from religious persecution, whether it's the Islamic religion, Methodist or LDS or any other religion. I'm on the side of good.

I believe in our right to debate political and religious issues. We all say things that sound worse in print than we probably meant them. But don't ya'll go deciding that I'm a bad person or attacking me personally just because I'm a ignorant yellow-dog Democrat. Um kay?

I mean if you keep that up, I'll have to take my leftist views somewhere else and I know you don't want that!!! Why who would you have that is so easily made to look ignorant?

Give peace a chance, as one of my favorite Beatles of the 1960s said. Now excuse me while I go burn my bra.

[marjon9 6]

Let's assume there are groups of violent jihadists trying to hurt us. Assuming that, would you not want to go after them? And if so, why would you support this diversion in Iraq, which had nothing to do with the groups that attacked us. And surely you must acknowledge that our efforts in Iraq are increasing the number of violent jihadists. Or, do you not acknowledge this?

[missy4gordon 0]

If academic research is too dry...and yours is impeccable, Jack...those who are interested can also access several documentary films on Radical Islam as well.

Once you've heard their videos and hear the mullahs preach the message of hate and world dominion; exhorting their followers to jihad, promising to kill all infidels, and so on...you cannot believe any longer that it doesn't exist. These films were taken in the supposedly "moderate" mosques around the world, notably in the US and in England. There are few very brave spokespeople who left their mosques and are willing to speak the truth.

There is nothing to lose but your illusions...check this information out for yourself.

Oh no, they're too busy watching Farenheit 911, and eating it up like cake. They will only look at one side of the issue.

[mousecrazy 2]

I already addressed the fallacy in logic that Americans are creating terrorists; please comment. (Remember, the comparison I made between that and how you and your neighbors were creating gang violence?).

To call American policy "Neanderthal" when you are comparing our military actions to groups of militias who snatch contractors and journalists off the street and saw their heads off with knives...well, there are no words. How can anyone make a comparison like that? They are justified, and we are Neanderthals? Furthermore, we are CREATING more the them?!

Get real.

BJean, the term ("swill-swallowing democrat") used by Jack that you interpreted to mean he was a drinking Democrat...well, I think he meant he "drank the Koolaid" or bought the party line of the Democrats...thus the term, Koolaid drinkers, which you might have heard before...as in, "Enjoy your Koolaid."

RE: diversion in Iraq. NO, I do not think it was a diversion, any more than any front in any war is a diversion. Iraq is one front in a war. There will be more. Both Afghanistan and Iraq were places to start...although the argument could easily be made that Syria and Iran need some attention.

Now, if the UN had any teeth whatsoever, and would actually act on the resolutions it passes...if it wasn't corrupt through and through, and would hold the line on consequences...perhaps there would be a chance to work together to control these rogue factions without military force. Sadly, this is no longer the situation at the UN.

Or do you not acknowledge this?

[mousecrazy 2]

Missy4Gordon...you are perhaps correct. On the other hand, I watched that, and the response to it.

What if you are too afraid of changing your mind to read or listen to other information? What if you want to get your information from Sean Penn?

[Sunta 4]

Well, that's because you're looking for something, when in fact, I responded to your first post before I read the whole entire thread. Is it okay if I posted to your original post?

Sure, but before you go and start calling people vicious, it would be preferable to take a little more time and think about their intent. Obviously my post was tremendously exaggerated and sarcastic.

Like I said if you are not one of the war-mongering Christians to whom I'm referring, then you have no cause to be offended.

I am sick and tired of the right wing unfairly focusing on a slim minority of people within a group. I'm oh so ready to give it back as good as they give it.

They're going to call Gay people child molesters and monsters? Fine, then I'm going to call them bloodthirsty evildoers. If they want to be childish about it maybe they need a childish counterpart.

if I made a Website the equivilent of Michael Savage's Website, but against right wing conservatives, I'd probably be shot dead. I think that "SOME" (NOT ALL) right wing Christians would be truly motivated to do that.

But despite that, I think the world needs a left wing version of Anne Coulter, Michael Savage, and all the other numerous crazy conservative "journalists". Why not?

In my life I'm a super balanced person, have friends from ALL backgrounds, and realize that there are no stereotypes, and that within each group of people (Christians, Muslims, Gays, Liberals, Republicans etc etc etc) there are bad people and there are splendid people.

But I think it's high time for a crazy wack job the equivalent of them to get themselves on the radio and start ranting about the rapist Christian soldiers in Iraq who mutilate little kids and then laugh about it. And post pictures of the aftermath of that, and post news stories about "Christians" who go and shoot up a schoolhouse, or murder their girlfriend's parents in cold blood and who bomb abortion clinics.

Maybe I would get lots of fans who think "Wow, you know, she has some really good points!"

But the enemies I would make would scare me too much, so I'll have to think about it long and hard before I do it.

[TommyO 5]

Violence Begets violence and thats that, if you are a proponent of violence do not be surprised when it is given back. Case in point, In this thread when someone feels slighted by another the response tends to be to return the slight. When however, a post speaks kindly of another individual the response is always positive. If I were to say that anyone who thinks differently is stupid I would recieve responses telling me that I am an ass. On the other hand If I were to state that I know that everyone reading this post is intelligent and that they should consider these words before proposing violence those who respond would do so in a less aggresive manner.

If violence begets violence then what begets kindess. The answer to that question might be worth exploring.

TommyO

[BJean 16]

I'm gonna say what so many said at Caruso's thread - I think it's time to shut this thread down. :heh:

[BJean 16]

Ooops. Wait a minute, I spoke too soon. TommyO had something nice to say.

[BJean 16]

Btw Sunta, I'm glad you didn't let them get away with their harsh comments to you. I can recognize humor. This thread is just full of it. I also think there's plenty of room for everyone to post whatever and whenever they choose, whether it is off the subject or not. Most people can handle everything with ease. It doesn't really cause all that much confusion and it can be fun and lighten the mood. Which is a difficult concept when you're talking agression, war and blood and guts. But hey, that's just me. I'm not a card-carrying member of the NO HIGHJACKING THE THREAD CLUB. So sue me.