"Savage Nation"

[L8BloomR 1]

JACK----INCREDIBLE POST!! You said so many things I was trying to say but couldn't find the words.... you are GOOD!! You said it ALL!!!!! :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

[Wheetsin 714]

This is strange logic. Does gossip or jealousy have the same consequences as does terror? Does it have the same purpose? In fact, it does not. Terror is used to control people, or cause chaos which will control people.

My point was not to say that gossip = terror. It was to say that there are certain things that we just can't get rid of. That point seems to have been lost, and for that I apologize.

I do not think that "war" and "giving up" are the only answers to problems. Perhaps I am a minority.

[L8BloomR 1]

This is strange logic. Does gossip or jealousy have the same consequences as does terror? Does it have the same purpose? In fact, it does not. Terror is used to control people, or cause chaos which will control people. It is meant to cause a destruction of society or fear that will break down culture to allow another culture to replace it. The consequence of "losing" the war on terror is that radical Islamists or jihadists or whatever term you want to use, will control more of the world. It is the stated goal. There are already judges in England who have ruled that it is legal for a Muslim man to beat his wife, because the Koran allows it. Now, we are that much closer to having two rules of law. Where will the future of gay rights and abortion rights be, if Muslim rule of law is accepted? A further example: some Muslim cab drivers believe they should not have to drive fares who are carrying alcohol, or dogs...continue that logic to more extreme "rights" that Americans want to be accepted.

The consequeces of not winning the war on terror are much more dire than not being able to take a cab, or knowing that your neighbor can be beaten, because she is a Muslim. I cannot understand that these are things you are willing to accept, and at the same time, rail against the Patriot Act, for goodness sake.

The comparisons made are false comparisons indeed. At any rate, most of America has never been known for throwing up their hands and saying...oops, can't be done. We're in the fight of our lives, for our lives and way of life.

If we can't win the war on gossip, does that mean we should never confront it, or even encourage it? You can tell a person that gossip is wrong...does that make them stop? Maybe, sometimes. I've never seen that tactic work with a terrorist. "Hey, buddy...blowing people up is wrong, okay? So, stop it already." When there is a war against your country, and your country is being attacked physically and philosophically, I think you have to try to win.

Giving up certainly will hasten the consequences.

EXCELLENT, Cindy!! With all the worry that somehow Pres. Bush will "chip away" at our freedoms, I think it is easy to lose sight of how many of our freedoms WILL die if we lose this war on terror. So many people who think that the REAL evil is Bush or Republicans or conservative thought maybe never really think about what is really at stake. We are so used to having total freedom to do or say anything...yet where in any of the countries that have vowed to destroy us, (and that has been going on for many more years than Bush has been in office), do they have even half the freedoms as here? Gays are stoned to death, women beaten even in the streets. Women as property. No freedom to or of religion. We would not be able to have these kinds of discussions on LBT, even.

Thank you for reminding us of what is really at stake... scary stuff....

Karen

[gailannr 1]

I think the reason why many Christians like Michael Savage is because they love all the bloodthirsty violence and nastiness. I went to his Website and I noticed that he has lots of videos and pictures of killings, beheadings, and torture of Americans with the caption "show this to your liberal friends!"

There are many Christians that just LOVE that stuff... just look at how excited and stimulated they got over "Passion of the Christ" which was totally disgusting.

The funny thing is... I could post a Webpage with 1000 times more pictures of innocent Iraqi children and citizens BURNED, MUTILATED, TORTURED, and KILLED by Americans and put the caption "Show this to your conservative friends!"

Hey! Maybe because of their blood lust, I could win some Christian converts over to the liberal side!!! Surely, video and images of little Iraqi girls with their legs blown off are even more enticing than video of adult men being beheaded right?

If our news showed the real images of what is going on in Iraq, the war would end tomorrow.

Oh come on, your exaggerating now!!!

[gailannr 1]

JACK----INCREDIBLE POST!! You said so many things I was trying to say but couldn't find the words.... you are GOOD!! You said it ALL!!!!! :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

To Jack and Mousecrazy and others, I agree, thank you for saying what many of us are thinking but are not darn near anywhere as articulate as you have been!

Thanks for being our voices out here in the wilderness.

I read somewhere that 10 Americans are killed every day by illegal aliens. If we do the math let's see, that is 3,650 a year. THAT WOULD MEAN THAT 18,250 Americans will be killed by ILLEGAL ALIENS in 5 years. Doesn't seem possible does it? Maybe we should try to negotiate with them. Bring them to the peace table or something. Maybe smoke something in a pipe with them.

[marjon9 6]

This is strange logic. Does gossip or jealousy have the same consequences as does terror? Does it have the same purpose? In fact, it does not. Terror is used to control people, or cause chaos which will control people. It is meant to cause a destruction of society or fear that will break down culture to allow another culture to replace it. The consequence of "losing" the war on terror is that radical Islamists or jihadists or whatever term you want to use, will control more of the world. It is the stated goal. There are already judges in England who have ruled that it is legal for a Muslim man to beat his wife, because the Koran allows it. Now, we are that much closer to having two rules of law. Where will the future of gay rights and abortion rights be, if Muslim rule of law is accepted? A further example: some Muslim cab drivers believe they should not have to drive fares who are carrying alcohol, or dogs...continue that logic to more extreme "rights" that Americans want to be accepted.

The consequeces of not winning the war on terror are much more dire than not being able to take a cab, or knowing that your neighbor can be beaten, because she is a Muslim. I cannot understand that these are things you are willing to accept, and at the same time, rail against the Patriot Act, for goodness sake.

The comparisons made are false comparisons indeed. At any rate, most of America has never been known for throwing up their hands and saying...oops, can't be done. We're in the fight of our lives, for our lives and way of life.

If we can't win the war on gossip, does that mean we should never confront it, or even encourage it? You can tell a person that gossip is wrong...does that make them stop? Maybe, sometimes. I've never seen that tactic work with a terrorist. "Hey, buddy...blowing people up is wrong, okay? So, stop it already." When there is a war against your country, and your country is being attacked physically and philosophically, I think you have to try to win.

Giving up certainly will hasten the consequences.

There are those of us who believe that the battle plan against the war on terror that is least likely to succeed is one that puts 150,000 U.S. troops in the middle of Iraq. You may think that putting these troops into Iraq is good plan, and that is your right. But you are simply incorrect to suggest that those of us who do not accept this plan simply want to "throw up our hands" and say "it can't be done."

The fact is, all human beings are fundamentally the same. Islamists want dignity and security, just like you. The best way to attain "victory" against terror is to work toward solving the problems that deprive our fellow humans of dignity and security. The actions of the United States are viewed as arrogant and disrespectful by most of the world's population. You can say we are "the worlds' police" if you want to. That is not how the large majority of the "world" views our actions.

After 9/11, the world was on our side. If we had taken a different approach, aimed at increasing the dignity and security of all peoples of the world, the world would now be a vastly safer place. I know, this will cause an uproar from conservatives who will feel a need to belittle the "bleeding heart liberals," but the simple unavoidable truth here is, we are all human beings, with the same basic needs. You can demonize all "Islamists" if you need to to justify our military bludgeoning of Iraq. But all of us have families, and a desire for a decent life, just like you. It is impossible to imagine how many fewer terrorists there would be today if we had taken a different approach. When we decided to go the route of brute force, we simply provided the extremists with an endless supply of recruiting material. There are millions of young, unemployed and/or poverty stricken Muslim men out there who can't support their families. Do you really think that you will ever "stamp them out" by making them all hate us to the core of their souls? There will ALWAYS be more! This is what people mean when they say we can't "win" the war on terror. If we can ever "win," it will not be through brute force.

And even if you believe we should have taken the path of brute force against those who perpetrated 9/11, how can you possibly justify turning that force on a buffoon like Saddam Hussein? Yes, we've all seen the pictures of the Kurds who were gassed, but dictators around the world have always committed atrocities. We can't oust them all. And the acts of Saddam, as awful as they were, had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. There is simply no justification for the Iraq war, even if you believe that we should have turned the full military might of the United States against the terrorists. The Iraq war was about finishing one for daddy. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the war on terror.

And, finally, even if you support the war in Iraq, how can you possibly support the arrogance of Rumsfield of sending so few troops that we could not possibly control the anarchy that followed the fall of the dictator. And then the additional arrogance of sticking with that plan, like a dumb stubborn mule, for three years after it was clear it was not working?

Yeah, I know, Bush is a Republican, and I know you feel like you need to "support" the Republican president. But, come on, can't you admit any of this? Are you going to stick to the party line to the bitter end, no matter what?

[BJean 16]

I'm just glad that some of you are so happy right now. Maybe you'll quit saying that you're outnumbered here. Looks to me like you have a full force of contingents to back up your pro-war ideology.

Sunta I don't think some of these folks would really mind seeing what's happening in Iraq. I think they know what's happening and they seem to be celebrating it here.

Now ya'll go ahead and jump on me with full force for that statement - there are plenty of you to tell me how wrong and stupid I am.

Let's get this one thing straight though, you're pretty certain that if it weren't for Bush, we'd be forced into becoming Muslims, right?

Even more comforting it is for me to know that we're in Iraq, doing what we're doing, because it is another humanitarian effort, like your boy did in New Orleans?

Nice to know that I can sleep better at night knowing that all those people in Iraq, including the beheaded ones (one who worked for my husband's company) are dying for a really good humanitarian cause.

You are freaking me out!

[BJean 16]

"RIYADH (Reuters) - Arab leaders arrived in Saudi Arabia on Tuesday ahead of a summit set to revive a five-year-old plan to end decades of Israeli-Arab conflict at the heart of the region's problems..."

Little news item today about some people trying to solve problems without bombs. At least SOMEBODY still believes in working at resolving issues without bloodshed.

By the way, Bill Clinton cured you from alcoholism and being a Democrat?

With regard to the comments about the Governor of Louisiana and Mayor of New Orleans playing a role in the misery suffered there: they may have played a role, but how does that in any way excuse FEMA's and Bush's actions? I wasn't talking about absolving anyone from blame who dropped the ball in the Katrina catastrophy, and no, I'm not all for rehashing it here, but your comment makes no sense.

As for your comment "Sure...just as safe as the one that produced the 20 years of increasing violence by jehadi fundis culminating in the WTC....yes, that was a certainly an era of increasing dignity and security wasn't it....."

A horrible terrorist act was committed on 9-11, and the bomb at the WTC before that was bad and they were acts of terrorism. How does citing those incidents prove in any way that there was as much terrorist activity going on then as there is now as a result of our actions in Iraq?

[marjon9 6]

Unaccustomed as I am of being labeled a 'republican', the decades I spent as a swill-swallowing Democrat, until Mr. Clinton cured me of that, my comments are not based on affiliation with the GOP. And in fact they have failed in many ways, which would make dreary reading for one and all.

It is pleasing to see the effect a few comments has on our more reticent members. I have a few responses to add:

re: "After 9/11, the world was on our side. If we had taken a different approach, aimed at increasing the dignity and security of all peoples of the world, the world would now be a vastly safer place"

Sure...just as safe as the one that produced the 20 years of increasing violence by jehadi fundis culminating in the WTC....yes, that was a certainly an era of increasing dignity and security wasn't it.....

Re: "I know, this will cause an uproar from conservatives who will feel a need to belittle the "bleeding heart liberals," but the simple unavoidable truth here is, we are all human beings, with the same basic needs"

I haven't been inducted into the secret republican organization that needs to blow up people, buildings, ships, pizza parlors, malls, churches of all kinds, nightclubs, schools, wedding parties, commuter buses, or push tied and bound prisoners off buildings for the world to see, let alone call for beheading on TV

re: "You can demonize all "Islamists" if you need to to justify our military bludgeoning of Iraq. But all of us have kids, and wives, and a desire for a decent life, just like you. It is impossible to imagine how many fewer terrorists there would be today if we had taken a different approach"

There is the secret....what we were doing before had produced enough of them to require action.....

re: "When we decided to go the route of brute force, we simply provided the extremists with an endless supply of recruiting material"

Unlike decades of brute stupidity in our foreign policies, that made 'em love us so much....

re: "There are millions of young, unemployed and/or poverty stricken Muslim men out there who can't support their families. Do you really think that you will ever "stamp them out" by making them all hate us to the core of their souls? There will ALWAYS be more! This is what people mean when they say we can't "win" the war on terror. If we can ever "win," it will not be through brute force"

So, again....present concrete examples of WHAT and HOW....

re: "dying for a really good humanitarian cause"

cute phrase....look to your own beliefs to understand the irony of your sarcasm....

What freaks ME out, is the idea I should give the bully everything he wants because YOU are freaked out...that approach has NEVER worked.

Check out the Neville Chamberlain theory of foreign relations, giving the Bad Boy what he wants..... It's called World War 2.

re: "The fact is, all human beings are fundamentally the same."

There was a time I believed that. In ways I still do...however, it is hard to ignore the evidence of the jehadi spokesmen calling infidels 'pigs and monkeys'....and inciting death for those who don't convert or pay tax for being allowed to live...

re: "Islamists want dignity and security, just like you. The best way to attain "victory" against terror is to work toward solving the problems that deprive our fellow humans of dignity and security"

Check out Dhimitude and tell me this is what your intent is, that we all want the same thing.

There is a far greater issue at stake here than US politics. What I am supporting, is beyond politics.

re: "The actions of the United States are viewed as arrogant and disrespectful by most of the world's population. You can say we are "the worlds' police" if you want to. That is not how the large majority of the "world" views our actions."

I'm all for moving OUT of the 'world's police force'....now, forget foreign aid, forget various trade treaties....lets get back into the simplistic era of 1930s isolationist....that worked well didn't it....

An obvious truth, is we CAN'T give grants, money, aid, etc to countries without oversight....the horrid petty local politics of our own New Orleans debacle demonstrated that...

And granted the Federal response was flawed....let's get to the bottom....the governor and the mayor both played major roles in making the catastrophe worse. Don't drag us thru this grind again....if you live in a flood zone, and your local politicians don't tell you to get out, how is the federal government at fault for that?

If your locally elected crooks...er, politicians....can not even follow your OWN prepared evacuation plan, then of course you have to blame the feds....

There's plenty of blame to go around, leave this beast where it is, you will neither like nor agree with my opinion. In a nutshell, it was the diplomats....er, bureaucrats....of all levels of government that failed the public in NO....having survived as a child the largest flood in California history up to that time (1955) when rescue efforts were very primitive by todays standards, I am quite aware of many details of such an event.

In my case, when the 'evacuate NOW' order came, we left with our tailpipe practically bubbling in the rising Water level...and that left permanent impressions on me....one of which is to live ABOVE the flood line...

My interest is to pursue a peaceful existence without being forced by politics or religion, into anything...including 'dial ONE for English'....

In my opinion this is just intellectual poppycock. You have failed to address the key point.

By our actions today, we are making more of the bad guys.

That's the truth, and anyone who gives an objective look at reality has to admit that. You say you do not have a pro-war ideology, you have a survivor idealogy. If that is true, why in the world would you ever want to make millions of hungry human beings hate you with every cell in their body. Do you really think this will help you survive?

I think it is fair to ask, what would Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandi, and Nelson Mandela do in this situation? Do you think they would have taken the Bush/Rumsfeld approach? I didn't think so.

[Sunta 4]

Oh come on, your exaggerating now!!!

As I stated in my last post, I was purposely exaggerating in order to prove a point.

The initial post was about Michael Savage. He says extreme, hateful, unfair, slanted, ignorant things on his radio show and on his Website, yet people "love" him, including many conservative Christians.

When I go on and say extreme, unfair, hateful things about the people that "love" his show, people are all up in arms and shocked and disgusted.

I think it's really, really hypocritical for anyone to call themselves a Christian and also like Michael Savage. He spews hateful venom all the time, posts slanted views of the war on his Website with NO balance, and is a general asshole.

So you know, sometimes I get really sick of people who profess to be "Christian" and yet likes someone who advocates violence against Gays, promotes racism, and looks down on immigrants.

I'm tired of the right wing people and their hatred.

Yes, my post was exaggerated. I realize that most Christians are decent, kind people. However there ARE some who ARE radical, bloodthirsty, and who do get off on violence. It's a fact.

So if you're not one of those people, you don't have cause to be offended by my post, because it was focusing on those "Christians" who fit the description of lunatic, hateful war mongers.

[Sunta 4]

And ALL Christians are NOT bloodthirsty, but it sure does seem a vicious thing to say. I'm sorry you feel that way. Hopefully, in time your heart will change.

Leatha, seriously, do you even read my posts???

[mousecrazy 2]

Here's the thing. I believe there are Middle Eastern Islamic people who, of course, would enjoy the kind of life we have here in America. They have never had it, though, so don't really know if it's possible. The women, if given a choice, would rather blow themselves up as suicide bombers than die in disgrace as "fallen" women. The culture and laws are just not comparable. We do not accept honor killings; they are common over there. But this is probably boring...and I am probably crossing all kinds of tolerance and diversity lines...

If you are of the mind that WE AMERICANS are creating jihadists...or more of them...I respectfully and firmly must disagree. America did not and does not create radical Islamic behavior anymore than you and your neighbor create gang crime. Many other factors go into the development and rise of radical Islam; using American values and culture as a focal point for hate, as well as the Christian and Jewish religions, is based in the Koran, and not merely political.

Thank you, Jack, for making more specific arguments. You've taken much time and it is appreciated.

[marjon9 6]

Here's the thing. I believe there are Middle Eastern Islamic people who, of course, would enjoy the kind of life we have here in America. They have never had it, though, so don't really know if it's possible. The women, if given a choice, would rather blow themselves up as suicide bombers than die in disgrace as "fallen" women. The culture and laws are just not comparable. We do not accept honor killings; they are common over there. But this is probably boring...and I am probably crossing all kinds of tolerance and diversity lines...

If you are of the mind that WE AMRICANS

It's not that you are crossing lines of tolerance and diversity. It's more along the lines of saying things that make you look ignorant. Do you have any concept of how many Muslims there are? And how many are wealthy? And how many different cultures and nationalities they represent? And how many different belief systems there are within the Muslim faith?

When you say that "the women, if given the choice, would rather blow themselves up as suicide bombers than die in disgrace," you make yourself look ridiculous and ignorant, and you diminish the credibility of your viewpoints.

[Sunta 4]

No. I just post cause I don't want to be left out. lol. Hilarious.

Well if you took the time to read my posts instead of slanting them to look a certain way by misquoting me, you'd see I clearly said numerous times that I "definitely do not think that all Christians are bloodthirsty" and that "I was exaggerating on purpose to prove a point."

However, your manipulation of my words is very typical of the type of "Christian" behavior I think is hypocritical.

[mousecrazy 2]

Thanks, Mark, for pointing out my ignorance. There's plenty to go around, it seems to me.

I'll use Sunta's excuse: I'm exaggerating to make a point.

Does it change the point I am making about RADICAL ISLAM?