You know what I don’t understand? We all get that you can’t urge an alcoholic to have just one drink. We wouldn’t dream of doing that.

But we routinely urge self-confessed bingers, sugar-carb addicts, grazers, and cheaters to “go ahead!” because “I do that and it doesn’t hurt me”.

Well maybe YOU can, but whoever posted in a panic about it clearly thinks they can’t control it and are panicked about falling off the wagon. That’s WHY they’re posting, right??

So why do we do that? Why do we tell bingers it’s okay to overeat once in a while? And that cheating on a pre-op is okay? Or that everyone should be eating everything in moderation including junk when the person is clearly saying “I’m trying not to eat junk?”

I’m not trying to be confrontational, I’m really intrigued as to why we don't see this an enabling behavior.

Thoughts?

to answer the original question' date=' maybe it's just that anybody with issues in a certain area (be they true addictions or not), are likely to enable other "users". Smokers minimize the slips of those trying to quit, drinkers can minimize the slips of alcoholics, and people with food issues are very likely to minimize the slips of others with food issues. In all areas of substance abuse, most enablers don't generally see their behavior as enabling...they think they're trying to be nice, or supportive, or understanding, or just patient. And if the enabler also partakes in the substance or behavior, then it's even harder to get them to stop enabling the addict.[/quote']

This was very helpful for me to be reminded of. Thank you!

What's so hard about this addiction is that we aren't physically able to abstain. Alcoholics can avoid bars/alcohol, drug addicts can completely avoid drugs, smokers can completely cut out cigarettes.. But food addicts can't cut out food unless we are tube fed the rest of our lives. We just have to realize WHAT the issue was before surgery, and try to resolve it. Perfect example is that while you (gamer girl) have a sugar addiction and must avoid all sweets, I've never had a sweet tooth and could take it or leave it. Me on the other had, am a carb addict. I love me some Pasta or bread or mashed potatoes. Plus, my portions were outrageous. As far as the portions go, I weigh my food so I could "empty my plate" without going over. I've slowly been learning that I don't have to empty my plate, and it's ok to leave food over. It comes from my mom and I being poor when I was little, and always being taught to eat everything on my plate. As far as the carbs go, I avoid them, just like you avoid sugar. They are a trigger, and once I have one, I want them all.

I'm sorry for rambling! But I think a lot of people "enable" and act supportive is because the second someone uses "tough love", they are pounced on and called "heartless" or an "internet bully", so some refrain from being blunt all together.

Frankly, when most people make those posts, they are looking for someone to tell them it will "be okay".

Actually, I think many people are seeking comfort. I have no problem giving it, but i also agree with your original point. I went to a support group meeting and the moderater didn't show up. I never went back, know why? Most of the meeting was people 6-8 months out talking about junk food. seriously...it was like a food porn discussion. it was NOT what I needed.

I don't know if I am a food addict or not, but what I DO KNOW is that I do better around people who are somewhat indifferent to food. I won't date a "foodie". I just don't need that focus on food in my life.

So if I remember my DSM, we're talking tolerance, withdrawal, losing control over quantities, trying to cut down but failing, continuing to use despite physical or psychological harm, and withdrawing from normal activities. Yes? Close? I don't remember now many yeses to qualify.

Tolerance and withdrawal don't work for food so let's reject those. I lost control over quantities of sugar. I tried to cut down on my own and failed. I continued to eat it despite physical harm. Curious if you think we would not all answer yes to these questions?

I'm not sure I agree with you about tolerance and withdrawal not applying to food. Our processed foods have crazy amounts of hidden sugar in them (primarily from corn derivatives), so I definitely think that a tolerance can be built up without us even realizing it. For a person who has physiological or emotional responses to sugar intake, it makes sense to me that the person would then need to consume ever larger amounts in order to produce the effect they are seeking. Further, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence about the physical symptoms that occur when withdrawing from carbs and sugar...headaches, irritability, shakiness, etc. So, yeah...I believe that tolerance, dependence, and withdrawal can be applicable to food.

When I first started this process, I was extremely concerned about determining whether or not I had a true addiction. I knew that could be the biggest challenge to being successful with WLS, so I really wanted to know if that was my problem. While I definitely enjoy sweets, other carbs like bread, Pasta, and potatoes, were my bigger concern. I ate refined carbs in some form every single day, and I love them. In addition, I drank alcohol every day. I fixed a vodka cocktail every night in a large cup, so it was probably the equivalent of 3-4 standard drinks. Even though I didn't think my drinking was compulsive, I also knew that I could be wrong about that. I knew that if I had addiction tendencies in any area, those two areas would be the most likely to be problematic. I discussed my concerns in depth during my 3 month psych eval, and I even requested some additional substance abuse assessments. All of the results indicated no substance issues. Those findings have been supported by my behavioral changes both pre- and post-op. I follow my dietary guidelines, I haven't experience much in the way of cravings, or found myself triggered by certain foods or situations. When I have wanted to taste something sweet or carby, a small taste has been satisfying and did not leave me wanting more. Over the past 4 months, I have consumed alcohol 3 times, about a half glass of wine each time. I don't miss the daily drink & it wasn't a struggle to give it up.

I know I'm not very far out, so maybe some of these choices will get harder for me. I'm trying to be prepared for that possibility, and to guard against complacency. I also know that everyone is different, so what's true for me will not necessarily be true for someone else. My personal experience tells me that genuine addiction was not a factor for me, but that doesn't mean it's not a factor for someone else.

Really good topic. I spent a lot of years reading about food addiction. I do meet all the requirements to qualify as an addict. But I still find myself unsure of where I fit in. After spending years trying to learn from 12 step programs, I am sure they are not for me.

I think the biggest reason people talk about mistakes, cheating, binges is to get out of the shame. And when someone tells them it's ok, mostly they are trying to break the guilt/shame/repeat cycle. I have a chorus of voices in my head that are constantly trying to get me to eat. When I listen to them it makes them stronger.

But total abstinence never worked for me either. I am healthiest when I can make good choices most of the time, and spent no time agonizing over the not so great choices. I spent the last week eating way to much of the wrong stuff, and agonizing over it. I never went over 1300 calories. And my beautiful brain kept telling me that was just fine! I wanted to change that, I posted, a few people responded with helpful supportive posts, and I am doing and feeling much better. I think we all want people to just feel better. When you feel better, you do better.

I think we all want people to just feel better. When you feel better' date=' you do better.[/quote']

I love this perspective. I kinda use it with my kids. My son called really mad at himself for making a stupid mistake. I didn't need to scold him, he was already beating himself badly enough. I did reassure him that everyone makes mistakes but I have to say, there are some very pointed questions I intend to ask him when he is less emotional about it! He still needs to learn from his mistake and avoid it in the future. But right then, he needed to feel better.

Frankly' date=' when most people make those posts, they are looking for someone to tell them it will "be okay". Actually, I think many people are seeking comfort. I have no problem giving it, but i also agree with your original point. I went to a support group meeting and the moderater didn't show up. I never went back, know why? Most of the meeting was people 6-8 months out talking about junk food. seriously...it was like a food porn discussion. it was NOT what I needed. I don't know if I am a food addict or not, but what I DO KNOW is that I do better around people who are somewhat indifferent to food. I won't date a "foodie". I just don't need that focus on food in my life.[/quote']

I'm the exact same way. I had to stop going to WW coz they talked about food constantly. Eating it, cooking it, avoiding it, sniffing it, licking it. By the time I left there I was ready to eat an entire damn pizza!

There are threads on here that are the same for me about cheating or craving etc. In many ways it's like watching a train wreck. I'm horrified but can't tear my eyes away. And they all create food thoughts in my head that weren't there before. I wonder how the posters can read those threads and talk about them without wanting some of the stuff they see others eating. I have to stay away from them. I know it's not like that for everyone, but for me, it's poison.

I'm not sure I have (or had) a food addiction. Sure I like to eat, I like to cook and bake and eat. The only thing I KNOW I love too much is bread...always HAVE loved bread - I swear it's genetic because from my paternal grandfather down we ALL love bread. My grandmother used to make him homemade biscuits twice a day and he would eat 5-6 at one meal (and of course HE was a thin man). Do I think I was addicted to bread...eh, possibly, but I am not "dying" to have it. I do eat some cheddar pumpkin seed crackers now and am satisfied with that. We all have different reasons for needing this surgery and different battles to fight. I do find the support here has been amazing for me. I surely hope that we can help one another fight those food battles and not encourage/enable them. That being said, I don't need anyone to tell me the food choices I make at times are wrong, or ask their permission, or get their "ok", when I do something, it's on ME, and yes I have posted about things I ate that were taboo, but it wasn't for someone to validate it or tell me I was wrong. Maybe that's just me, maybe some people do need validation or someone to tell them they are wrong...I sure hope i have made sense in this post. I just know I am appreciative for the "help" i've gotten on VST:)

So if I remember my DSM' date=' we're talking tolerance, withdrawal, losing control over quantities, trying to cut down but failing, continuing to use despite physical or psychological harm, and withdrawing from normal activities. Yes? Close? I don't remember now many yeses to qualify.

Tolerance and withdrawal don't work for food so let's reject those. I lost control over quantities of sugar. I tried to cut down on my own and failed. I continued to eat it despite physical harm. Curious if you think we would not all answer yes to these questions?

[/quote']

I was thinking tolerance and withdrawal work perfectly when it comes to food.....particularly the blood sugar/insulin release aspect. Repeated cycles of eating high GI foods cause insulin resistance, leading to blood sugar spikes and crashes (the crash can definitely feel like withdrawal as your body feels physically ill and the only relief is to eat). And if you continue to combat these blood sugar crashes with more high GI foods (as I did for more than 20 years), you will become more insulin resistant, requiring more sugar to produce an insulin response (tolerance?).

"Tried to cut down on my own and failed." ---- CHECK

"Continued to eat despite physical harm." ---- CHECK

"Losing control over quantities." ----CHECK

Honestly I think these last 3 can be checked by everyone on this forum....except I keep reading about people who became obese on 700 calories a day

As to the original question...often times it is enabling. Although the original posters would probably call it a need to feel they are not alone and they are not "the only one." Some people can eat all things in moderation and so they have no problem telling others to do the same...not realizing that approach can derail certain people. Some people refuse to classify this as a diet..... I guess saying certain foods aren't "allowed" makes it a diet? I don't know. Perhaps for them it does. I don't really consider myself on a diet but I do have some foods I don't allow...banned foods. I never say "I eat what I want" cause it's not true. If I did, I'd be eating pizza and nachos 7 days a week. I do eat what my body needs, and occasionally something I don't need. But I'm very aware that FOR ME, a slight indulgence (which seems harmless) can lead to more frequent slight indulgences, which can snowball very quickly into daily chocolate fests. And I think people forget about the "FOR ME" part all time. They assume what works for them works for everyone....I know I'm guilty of this myself.

For me pre op was fairly easy because my doctor didnt believe in me living on protien shakes and starving myself. He and the nutritionist gave me a guideline for a diet to reduce my calorie intake, which I followed, but they both said to listen to your body. If its saying you meed more at that moment, eat a little more but be smart. Our bodies arent used to that few calories so to try to force it that low for a long period of time not only makes your body feel bad, but your mind. I was incredibly addicted to food. But by not starving myself of everything I craved (but still making right choices) I mentally and physically was better off pre op.

And I think the same applies post op. For me personally I had a hell of a time physically with the full liquid so I ate what my body said I could, but stayed at pureed. Once I was able to get where I could eat soft food thats when cravings kicked in...mostly salt. I did indulge slightly. If I wanted salt I ate some prociutto, or a cracker or 1 chip. Literally having the taste of it satisfied me. If I fwlt like it was too good and wanted more I didnt do it again.

Pretty much my point is I dont believe in full on depravation of the things you love but I do believe in moderation and making overall better choices. If I have 1 bad snack or meal, I make sure the rest of my day is full of the best things I can eat and still stay within my calories. I know I have a food addiction , and I think if you can control yourself its ok to eat the things you love as long as you only do it once in a while and know you can control yourself. Post op I feel mentally and physically so much better than I ever have, both parts regarding how I feel and think about food, and I am happy with all the choices I have made.

I'm not sure I agree with you about tolerance and withdrawal not applying to food. Our processed foods have crazy amounts of hidden sugar in them (primarily from corn derivatives), so I definitely think that a tolerance can be built up without us even realizing it. For a person who has physiological or emotional responses to sugar intake, it makes sense to me that the person would then need to consume ever larger amounts in order to produce the effect they are seeking. Further, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence about the physical symptoms that occur when withdrawing from carbs and sugar...headaches, irritability, shakiness, etc. So, yeah...I believe that tolerance, dependence, and withdrawal can be applicable to food.

When I first started this process, I was extremely concerned about determining whether or not I had a true addiction. I knew that could be the biggest challenge to being successful with WLS, so I really wanted to know if that was my problem. While I definitely enjoy sweets, other carbs like bread, Pasta, and potatoes, were my bigger concern. I ate refined carbs in some form every single day, and I love them. In addition, I drank alcohol every day. I fixed a vodka cocktail every night in a large cup, so it was probably the equivalent of 3-4 standard drinks. Even though I didn't think my drinking was compulsive, I also knew that I could be wrong about that. I knew that if I had addiction tendencies in any area, those two areas would be the most likely to be problematic. I discussed my concerns in depth during my 3 month psych eval, and I even requested some additional substance abuse assessments. All of the results indicated no substance issues. Those findings have been supported by my behavioral changes both pre- and post-op. I follow my dietary guidelines, I haven't experience much in the way of cravings, or found myself triggered by certain foods or situations. When I have wanted to taste something sweet or carby, a small taste has been satisfying and did not leave me wanting more. Over the past 4 months, I have consumed alcohol 3 times, about a half glass of wine each time. I don't miss the daily drink & it wasn't a struggle to give it up.

I know I'm not very far out, so maybe some of these choices will get harder for me. I'm trying to be prepared for that possibility, and to guard against complacency. I also know that everyone is different, so what's true for me will not necessarily be true for someone else. My personal experience tells me that genuine addiction was not a factor for me, but that doesn't mean it's not a factor for someone else.

I appreciate your knowledge on the subject of addiction. I also think you were very smart to seek help with issues that may have been a tirgger before your surgery.

I was one of those people who never thought I had a food addiction. Until I started therapy well before my surgery. . . and then had surgery. What really made it clear to me that I am a food addict was how my body/brain reacted to the pre-op and post-op diets. I felt like what I imagine an alcoholic feels like when they can't have a drink. I craved that food high that made everything "better" and numbed me to any emotion that I didn't want to feel. Even now, the sleeve doesn't allow me to eat the quantity of food to get my high I loved so much. It has been a very tough road, and my therapist has been my saving grace. Now at almost 5 months out I'm feeling more in control and my withdrawals have mostly gone away, but I will always struggle with this. I've learned so much about myself, finding what works for me to manage my addiction.

By the way, there is sugar in just about everything OR it breaks down to sugar almost immediately in our body (like simple carbs and alcohol). My therapist said the research shows that sugar is AS ADDICTIVE to our brains as HEROIN. Yep! Heroin addicts who stop using usually turn to sugar because of the similar dopamine response in the brain. Interesting stuff!

Edited October 10, 201312 yr by Jen35

I appreciate your knowledge on the subject of addiction. I also think you were very smart to seek help with issues that may have been a tirgger before your surgery.

I was one of those people who never thought I had a food addiction. Until I started therapy well before my surgery. . . and then had surgery. What really made it clear to me that I am a food addict was how my body/brain reacted to the pre-op and post-op diets. I felt like what I imagine an alcoholic feels like when they can't have a drink. I craved that food high that made everything "better" and numbed me to any emotion that I didn't want to feel. Even now, the sleeve doesn't allow me to eat the quantity of food to get my high I loved so much. It has been a very tough road, and my therapist has been my saving grace. Now at almost 5 months out I'm feeling more in control and my withdrawals have mostly gone away, but I will always struggle with this. I've learned so much about myself, finding what works for me to manage my addiction.

By the way, there is sugar in just about everything OR it breaks down to sugar almost immediately in our body (like simple carbs and alcohol). My therapist said the research shows that sugar is AS ADDICTIVE to our brains as HEROINE. Yep! Heroine addicts who stop using usually turn to sugar because of the similar dopamine response in the brain. Interesting stuff!

You know I feel fortunate in this regard. I have not mourned food at all. I am so relieved that I don't need to eat large quantities just to feel full, or be hungry if I don't. I didn't have food funerals pre-op either. In fact, I started to cut down a week before the liquid diet, and then I did an additional week of it to keep my husband company. I haven't missed being able to eat. I go out to great restaurants or large gatherings where there is food, and it hasn't bothered me yet.

I ate out of boredom. Typically when I'm stressed or depressed, I can't eat. Unfortunately for my body I'm typically a happy, not depressed, not stressed person who gets bored very easily so...

I really do feel fortunate in that regard. But I agree with you 100% on the sugar being as addictive as heroin. I think some of us are programmed that way.

And I agree with Butter and southernsoul, perhaps I was too quick to dismiss tolerance and withdrawal from sugar. Because you are right, I did eat more and more sugar as the months went by, and it did create more and more irresistible hunger. And if you'd been around me the first five days of my pre-op? You would have seen some UGLY withdrawal!

My husband is determined to never eat sugar again. He knows he won't be able to stop once he starts. I'm not sure where I will be in time, but right now I have no desire to fight that demon.

Edited October 10, 201312 yr by gamergirl

You know what I don’t understand? We all get that you can’t urge an alcoholic to have just one drink. We wouldn’t dream of doing that.

But we routinely urge self-confessed bingers, sugar-carb addicts, grazers, and cheaters to “go ahead!” because “I do that and it doesn’t hurt me”.

Well maybe YOU can, but whoever posted in a panic about it clearly thinks they can’t control it and are panicked about falling off the wagon. That’s WHY they’re posting, right??

So why do we do that? Why do we tell bingers it’s okay to overeat once in a while? And that cheating on a pre-op is okay? Or that everyone should be eating everything in moderation including junk when the person is clearly saying “I’m trying not to eat junk?”

I’m not trying to be confrontational, I’m really intrigued as to why we don't see this an enabling behavior.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure that it's necessarily enabling, but more letting people know that we've been there - it happens to people. I usually try to tell them to just move on, because dwelling on something like that will only make it worse. Not everyone has those moments, but most of us do, so most of us can relate to someone new to the sleeve that is going through that kind of thing. I don't see it as enabling, but as supporting.

My husband is determined to never eat sugar again. He knows he won't be able to stop once he starts. I'm not sure where I will be in time' date=' but right now I have no desire to fight that demon.[/quote']

I'm glad my post made some sense because I wrote it half asleep.

But tell your husband this. I too was determined to never eat sugar again. I basically spent 25 years living to eat high carb and sugar foods to prevent the next blood sugar crash. How I never developed diabetes I'll never know. It's some kind of miracle. Perhaps due to the fact that I was always extremely active. But nevertheless, I resolved to never slip back into that terrible cycle. But eventually.....about a year post op, I had a little slip. It started out as a slight treat. Which turned into another treat 2 weeks later, then another 1 week later....until very quickly it was 2 or 3 candy bars a days. This whole process took less than 2 months and caught me completely by surprise. I was able to cut it out. But I realized I could not go cold turkey forever. And frankly once I hit goal didn't really feel I wanted to. But my compromise to it is I only have sugar in the form of high quality sweets or Desserts, not the stuff I can get everyday...nothing I can buy in a grocery store. I'm talking MILs red velvet cake at Christmas, really good pecan pie from Pappas (in Houston)....something 5 star. Short of that, I just say no. And when I do have something sweet...it's really good and worth it.

I'm glad my post made some sense because I wrote it half asleep.

But tell your husband this. I too was determined to never eat sugar again. I basically spent 25 years living to eat high carb and sugar foods to prevent the next blood sugar crash. How I never developed diabetes I'll never know. It's some kind of miracle. Perhaps due to the fact that I was always extremely active. But nevertheless, I resolved to never slip back into that terrible cycle. But eventually.....about a year post op, I had a little slip. It started out as a slight treat. Which turned into another treat 2 weeks later, then another 1 week later....until very quickly it was 2 or 3 candy bars a days. This whole process took less than 2 months and caught me completely by surprise. I was able to cut it out. But I realized I could not go cold turkey forever. And frankly once I hit goal didn't really feel I wanted to. But my compromise to it is I only have sugar in the form of high quality sweets or Desserts, not the stuff I can get everyday...nothing I can buy in a grocery store. I'm talking MILs red velvet cake at Christmas, really good pecan pie from Pappas (in Houston)....something 5 star. Short of that, I just say no. And when I do have something sweet...it's really good and worth it.

I'm with you on that Butter, I have always loved my sweet, right now I don't want sweets too much, more savory things, BUT...I am not wasting my calories on store bought sweets though...