This topic was brought up in the HPV vaccine thread, and I wanted to get everybody's opinion on it.

I think that sex before marriage is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it, along with living together, gives couples a chance to see what their marriage might be like. Sex is a huge part of marriage, and bad sex can undermine a marriage, IMO. Plus, it helps you figure out if what you are feeling is true love or just plain lust.

I personally believe that the push to make teens abstain until marriage may actually be contributing to the high divorce rate. If people think that they have to be married to have sex, I think they might rush into a marriage because they might not know the difference between lust and love. Take my former roommate, for example. She and her boyfriend dated for 4 years before they got married. To my knowledge, they were both virgins when they married. They separated within 6 months of marrying and were officially divorced the day before their first anniversary. I really believe that the disgrace in having sex before marriage and living together (he was Mormon) contributed to the failure of their marriage. I think that if they had been allowed to see what each other was truly like, apart from dates, they wouldn't have gotten married.

I never could understand how deciding not to have kids was selfish.

The people who tell you that are simply jealous of your independence, freedom, and happiness. They want everyone to suffer the way that they suffer. LOL!

The people who tell you that are simply jealous of your independence, freedom, and happiness. They want everyone to suffer the way that they suffer. LOL!

Kind of like married people wanting to set up their single friends? :confused:

I know parents who admit if they knew what they were getting into, they wouldn't have had kids. I also know parents who are great parents, and love every good/bad/ugly moment.

I was born without a maternal drive. I didn't play with dolls when I was a kid. And I have always needed a lot of private time.

DH and I are talking about starting to try and get pregnant in a few months (surgeon's guidelines stated 12 months). I'm not where I want to be physically, but feel that I have to balance that against my age. My biggest fear - and I'm sure this is quote normal, is that I will be a bad parent. My second biggest fear is that I will regret it. Maybe this makes me sound like I will be a horrible parent, and if that's the case so be it, but part of why I'd only want one is that I wouldn't want to be in the position of having two and favoring or preferring one over the other.

I'll open up a little chapter of my life, so if truly personal stories bother you, don't read on.

5 years ago, between urging DH to get snipped, I too was looking for a surgeon willing to tie my tubes. DH really has that whole "manly" connection to his ejaculate, so I figured the burden was going to rest on me. I couldn't find a surgeon to do it. I'm forgetting the exact criteria set forth by the surgeons I spoke with, but it was something like:

Over the age of 30 with no children and husband's consent (yeah, seriously)

Over the age of 28 with at least one child

Over the age of 24 with 2+ children.

What it boiled down to was that the surgeon's were scared of future consequences, e.g. they tie my tubes, 8 years later I want children and this leads to a lawsuit or complications. And I couldn't find anyone to do me. And DH wasn't jumping at the gun to get snipped.

Anyway, so you can see that I was serious about not wanting children. Not a lick of maternal instinct in me. I'm annoyed by others' kids, I bailed on every family event I could to avoid being around my young cousins. On the rare occasion that someone coerced me into holding their baby it would start to cry the minute I took it. I say that and it may sound facetious, but I'm being completely honest. I just absolutely lack tolerance when it comes to children.

As some of you have probably read before, I lost my grandfather about 4 years ago. Maybe it was 3. I'm not great at remembering things like that. My grandfather was an awesome man. Absolutely awesome. I was in the room when he died, I watched him take his last breath, and I closed his eyes after he was pronounced dead. I'm not an emotional person, and absolutely not an outwardly emotional person. I stayed strong for my parents, and had my moment later that night after I got home.

The next morning I got up, got in the shower, was in the middle of washing my hair and *bam* it hit me. I wanted to have a baby. Not right then, but in my life. It hit me so strongly that, again, I broke down bawling in the shower. What did it? I had a picture pop into my head, of my husband sitting down holding a baby - up over the shoulder like when you're trying to comfort it - and this reality struck of... I'm not going to word this correctly... but no child I could have would ever be able to meet my grandafther and know what an incredible man he was, and how sad for them to have been robbed from their ability to know someone who would make their lives better. And I was absolutely flooded with emotion, and realized that a lot of my not wanting children was stemming from my own fears of failure, and did I really want to miss all of the good moments and learning and dimension because of my own fears? Hadn't they already stopped me enough? And all I could do was stand there in the shower, sobbing, because something I had known so concretely for my entire life had just changed in the blink of an eye, and what the hell do you do with that?

So we were scheduled to drive back to my parents that day so that I could help making the funeral arrangements and stuff, and on the drive there I told DH about this "moment" I had, and how unlike me it was, and how powerful it was. I wasn't sure how he would respond because he had never wanted children either. I wasn't sure what this would mean for our relationship, and it was a little scary. But he really surprised me. He said he did want children, thought not right then (which I didn't either), but that he always went along with me when I said I didn't because he never wanted me to feel pressured to have children for his sake. I cried the entire drive/conversation. Sobbed.

And when we go out and there's a bratty kid, it's still annoying. And I still feel akward holding babies and make them cry. And I still dread family functions because I know there will be kids running around. I expect that will never change. But it doesn't matter.

Wow! What a beautiful story, Wheetsin, and thanks for sharing this with us.

It strikes Green that you will be a fine mother. You know what it is to love someone deeply; your account of your relationship with your grandfather is proof of that. You also know how annoying other people's kiddies can be and so you will be acutely aware of this when preparing your own child for public consumption. And vis-a-vis babies and tiny children, my mother told me she never really liked them; she only liked her own.:confused: You also have on your side the fact that you are an intelligent, thoughtful, and well-educated woman, and one who has a stable relationship with a mate who is on the same page.

Green says mazel tov and congratulations, grrl!

Wheetsin, wow, that brought tears to my eyes. I'm going to hug my kids a little tighter tonight. :hug:

Wheetsinm, you WILL make a great mother, because you're one smart lady. You're funny and you've always got something spot on to say. If you bring those qualities to parenthood, it doesnt matter in the least that you dont turn to custard at the sight of a newborn. Your kids dont need to be oohed and aahed over, they need firm, practical love and guidance.

DH and I are talking about starting to try and get pregnant in a few months (surgeon's guidelines stated 12 months). I'm not where I want to be physically, but feel that I have to balance that against my age. My biggest fear - and I'm sure this is quote normal, is that I will be a bad parent. My second biggest fear is that I will regret it. Maybe this makes me sound like I will be a horrible parent, and if that's the case so be it, but part of why I'd only want one is that I wouldn't want to be in the position of having two and favoring or preferring one over the other.

I have two kids, so I would like to share my feelings with you on this issue. Hopefully this can help put you at ease in some small way.

I was the baby of the family, was never around little kids, never babysat, didn't really like kids, period. As I got older and friends started having babies, I would NEVER, repeat NEVER hold them, didn't want anyting to do with them AT ALL. I was soo not motherly, maternal, whatever. So, fast forward a few more years, I got married and we decided it was time to have kids. I got pregnant, mind you I still hadn't held any babies except my sisters baby maybe twice. So when I had my first, it was like a total transformation took over me. Everything changed within me, I suddenly couldn't remember life without him, and didn't want to. I all of a sudden would completely melt whenever I saw a baby, and of course HAD to hold them!! We waited 6 years to have our second one, and I can honestly tell you that it (at least for me) is impossible to love one more than the other. I can't imagine life without them, even for a second. Of course, there are days......just kidding!!

So, I hope this has helped you a little.

Missy, your story is so similiar to mine---except that my maternal feelings didn't "kick in" full force until the moment my newborn began to nurse. That was 2 days after he was born, but POW! What a feeling....I will never forget it. I went from "indifferent parent" to "Tigress Mom" ("I'd do anything for this child") in approx. 3 seconds!

Nice to know so many of us have similiar stories!

I'm like most of you too. I was the youngest in the family, never babysat except once which cured me from the whole idea of babysitting, and unruly kids drove me batty. I'm also like Green's mom, although I never liked other people's kids, I sure love my own like there's no tomorrow.

I only had two kids. I love them both completely but differently. Each of them has different traits and good qualities. They both have some things that I wish were a little different. I enjoy being with them one on one and hearing all their innermost thoughts and feelings. The best time for me though is when I have all my "chicks in one basket", my babies, their spouses and their babies. It's amazing when we're all together.

Wheetsin.. you sound like me. Your story was heartfelt and I am sure you will do everything in your power to be a good mother, and that will make you be a good mother.

Also, I never wanted kids until I met my husband. But I still hate everyone else's loud, obnoxious, rude, hateful, overall annoying kids but mine.

Wheetsin: I really loved your story and that you shared it with us. Your grandfather must have been a really wonderful man and he, fortunately, was able to have you in his life too.

I told each and every officiant to leave out "obey" because I would NOT promise to obey any man this side of heaven.

They all complied.

When my second husband and I got married I told the minister to leave out the "obey" also. My husband thought I was being weird, its just a word. I said no I cant say it!

When I had my first child ...ah....34yrs ago (hard to believe) I didnt feel maternal at all. Part of that was I was only 18. It slowly took over, and I do mean slowly. I dont think I really felt maternal until I had my second one. But, having patience with someone elses little ones gets easier after you have kids, because you KNOW how hard it is sometimes to get them to do things. I have a VERY good daughter in law that is a Mom. Very attentive,and my granddaughter doesnt get away with much. She is very behaved, but sometimes she gets a little out of hand. And its not from lack of training by Mom & Dad. Shes just a kid, and kids will be like that. We arent all perfect all the time.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

What is the reason that women should submit to men in everything? Why is the man the "head" of everything exactly?

When one "submits" they are yielding the authority and power of another.

Why do men have authority over women? Why do men have power over women?

Do you agree with this church statement? Are you ok with always yielding to the authority of your husband? And if so, why?

This statement absoultely places women in a subjugated position under the man, and it espouses the viewpoint that women are secondary to men, and are thus inferior.

I am fascinated that a modern woman would even consider allowing herself to be diminished in this way, and to be held in second place beneath her husband.

This is an excellent example of how organized religion subverts women.

I tried explaining this to a non-Christian woman once, several years ago, and she looked at me like I had two heads. Hopefully I'll do better this time.

In the Greek, there are two separate and distinct words for obedience and submission; they are not the same thing. The word used in this scripture is not the one for obedience. The word is often used in the same context when discussing military rank, etc. A functioning unit must have a head, and our children know that Daddy is the head of our household. I am valued and important and not ever treated as a second-class citizen. In fact, my husband believes that making me happy in the marriage is his responsibility. If I am unhappy, it is his duty to fix it. If the marriage failed, he would place the blame squarely on his shoulders.

This is how the whole thing takes form in our marriage: when we don't have the same opinion about something, we discuss it and try to see it from the others' point of view. If we can't reach a mutual agreement and an action has to be taken, I willfully submit to my husband's position. I find that I am generally a bit more hot-headed than he is and he can often take a much more even-keeled approach to things than I can -- so it's actually a very good thing. Sometimes he'll want me to not act on something, and when I don't I look back later and realize he was 100% right in his approach. Practically, does this mean I never ask my husband to do things for me, but I always do what he wants without question? No, not in the least.

You have to remember that that qualifier -- "as the church submits to Christ" is huge. Christ doesn't have any nefarious goals for His church. Also, the qualifier, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" is equally huge. Rather than unimportant, secondary, subjugated, inferior, or diminished, I instead feel important, honored, protected, and safe.

I am a well-educated, strong-willed woman. I am not inferior to my husband. We are partners. But in the rare circumstances when one course of action must be taken and we disagree on which way to go, I submit to him and have invariably found that to be the best way to go.

I hope I did the issue justice. I'm having a particularly awful day, so if something doesn't make sense I'd be happy to clarify.