This topic was brought up in the HPV vaccine thread, and I wanted to get everybody's opinion on it.

I think that sex before marriage is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it, along with living together, gives couples a chance to see what their marriage might be like. Sex is a huge part of marriage, and bad sex can undermine a marriage, IMO. Plus, it helps you figure out if what you are feeling is true love or just plain lust.

I personally believe that the push to make teens abstain until marriage may actually be contributing to the high divorce rate. If people think that they have to be married to have sex, I think they might rush into a marriage because they might not know the difference between lust and love. Take my former roommate, for example. She and her boyfriend dated for 4 years before they got married. To my knowledge, they were both virgins when they married. They separated within 6 months of marrying and were officially divorced the day before their first anniversary. I really believe that the disgrace in having sex before marriage and living together (he was Mormon) contributed to the failure of their marriage. I think that if they had been allowed to see what each other was truly like, apart from dates, they wouldn't have gotten married.

L8BloomR: Yes, it is always shocking to learn than a woman has taken a beating at the hands of some rat of a man. But when you stop and think about how reliant many women are on men, it makes some sense.

When you think about how some organized religions have worked so hard to keep women "in their place" it isn't surprising that we have such an uphill battle. It shocks me even more when another woman buys into it to such an extent that they agree that women should take a back seat to men.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard women say that they are supportive of women, but when given a choice for President or forman of a jury or captain of a bowling team, they will choose a man over a woman every time.

I wonder if it is even possible to fix a truly abusive man?

Yes, it is. I had my dog fixed, but I understand it's hard to find a human doctor who will cooperate.

Yes, it is. I had my dog fixed, but I understand it's hard to find a human doctor who will cooperate.

Good one, Carlene!! :heh: :heh: :heh: :heh:

L8BloomR: Yes, it is always shocking to learn than a woman has taken a beating at the hands of some rat of a man. But when you stop and think about how reliant many women are on men, it makes some sense.

When you think about how some organized religions have worked so hard to keep women "in their place" it isn't surprising that we have such an uphill battle. It shocks me even more when another woman buys into it to such an extent that they agree that women should take a back seat to men.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard women say that they are supportive of women, but when given a choice for President or forman of a jury or captain of a bowling team, they will choose a man over a woman every time.

This business of abused women is a tough issue for all of us. Tough minded modern women often find it hard to relate to these women unless they acidentally find themselves in the same place, that is to say, in thrall to a man who is controlling to the point of being abusive. Though it is certain that there are men who are anxious to be dominant and who are also strongly anchored to a religious code of behaviour, it is also certain that it is men, and certainly these men, who will easily find reinforcement for their misbehaviour in their religious teachings, and it is this which serves to alienate the modernists from the fundamentalists, regardless of belief, be it Christian, Islam, Jewish, or founded in any of the more esoteric beliefs.

At the same time this issue of abused women is certainly a divisive one. There are many of us who think that the logical, indeed the normal, move for any hard up against it woman is to take charge of your own life by walking out, cutting your losses, and remaking your life. Green tends to fall into this proactive group. Her own temperament leaves her unsympathetic to any behaviour that carries the pathology of victomology and of passivity.

Nevertheless, there are a lot of women and their kids out there who are living in victims' ville and we must wonder where these people came from and what we can do for their kids.

Just to let you know where Green is coming from vis-a-vis this particular issue, you should know that she kinda dresses to the right. She saw her husband and a colleague and friend of theirs, a man of colour, be hung up to dry on sexual harrassment charges by a former friend. This was a long term friendship which had gone sour. The deal was that the complainant was a woman and she complained that this was all about sexual harrassment. Green herself explained to human resources that the individuals involved had been friends with each other for the past 15 years and that the children of one of the two injured parties had been calling the woman who was crying wolf auntie for well over a decade.

It is important that we never unthinkingly hand out power, be it to the left or to the right. Our responses should never, ever be thoughtless, eh.:phanvan

All the same, whether you or Green can find it in your hearts to deal with one of these women, they do exist and they do need help.

Yes, it is. I had my dog fixed, but I understand it's hard to find a human doctor who will cooperate.

Yah, tell me about it!! There I was, eleven years old, I had breasts and horrible menstrual cramps and even then I knew I didn't want to have kids. I never, ever did find a doctor who was willing to spay me. Oh, ugh. I guess I was kinda lucky. I went through menopause shortly after I hit my 40s.:clap2:

Thi And that's why when people poll or discuss whether or not you'd cheat, or your spouse would cheat, I can say with completely confidence that my husband would never cheat on me.

I feel the same way. My husband and I are totally committed to each other....however, we do enjoy the occassional trip together to the "dollar store" (strip club)

I too have heard that some religeions "keep women in thier place" but that is not what Christ wanted. He actually did more to support women and took women out of the "property" classification and brought them into an honored place in society. If a religion supports this it fits the status of cult to my way of thinking, again, twisting scriptures.

letheaG: I do not believe that all Southern Baptist churches have identical approaches, but I am curious. How does your pastor suggest that women and men behave in marriage?

My experience was 40 years ago. I probably should have qualified my earlier post by mentioning that. Things may have changed in the Southern Baptist Church since then. But that approach was universal within the S.B. Church back then - at least in Oklahoma.

The man I married the second time around is Catholic. We went to the Catholic Church most of our married lives and our children became Catholics and attended parocial schools. We moved around the country quite a lot and one Catholic Church we attended in northern Virginia (Chantilly) had a priest who was a real kook. He told us one Sunday morning that a woman had come to him complaining of a husband who slapped her, repeatedly, and that she wanted to divorce him. The Priest said (from the pulpit) that he called her husband in and altogether they had a counseling session where he explained to the wife that divorce was never allowed. He said that he told her that she should always forgive her husband for his transgressions. He went on to deliver a homily addressing the issue in depth. He never mentioned that the husband needed to change his behavior, just that the wife should. I should also tell you that it created an uproar that the Bishop heard. The kooky Priest was transferred to a tiny little parish out in the toolies.

Maybe I'm more sensitive to things that I believe are done and said to keep me subservient or that make me feel like I am inferior in some way. Maybe I'm just living too much in the past. But if you wonder why I am a Christian but not a current member of any congregation, my bad experiences from the 60s and 70s are the reason. I should probably give organized religion another chance, since I am sure things have changed in the past 40 years. My husband and I talk about it from time to time, but when we think about all the things that have been done by people who run organized religion, in the name of the Bible, we just aren't ready. I mentioned some of the other troubling events on a different post... there have been many more than the couple I've talked about here.

BJean, my mother is Catholic, and I believe that had she followed her church's course of action, I may not be typing this because she would have been murdered long before I was born. From another thread (to save typing):

My mother married very young - around 18. Her first husband was a real gem. He moved her across the country, joined the military, and on the day he returned from bootcamp he used a tire iron to beat her into a coma in their apartment complex's parking lot. [editing out some of the more graphic details here]. She sought input from her church, and was advised to look to god for the answer, but always remember that marriage vows are intended to be forever. The violence continued, she divorced him, and was no longer allowed to participate fully in her church's activities because of it.

When she filed for divorce, he came after her with a butcher knife, and she happened to run to my father's door for help -- which is how my parents met. My parents have the most incredible relationship, but had hard times financially when they were first starting out. When they got married, it was done by a judge in his courtroom because the $100 they had between them just wasn't enough to pay for a church wedding. There are now even more things she isn't allowed to do, because "in the eyes of the church" she acted inappropriately. She would have had a church wedding, but couldn't afford their asking price.

When she sought help from her church she was told to look to god for the answer, but remember that marriage vows are intended to be forever. Lots of help, huh? She said that the undertone was very, very strong that everyone make mistakes, and yes - the man needed to own up to his offenses, but it was her wifely and godly duty to be there for him and support him through his hardships (hmm, must be hard to do that when you're trying to recover from a coma he put you in).

To date she's not a "good standing" memeber because she didn't have an anullment of her marriage through the church, she just had a legal divorce. Through the eyes of the church this means she is living in sin - a married woman having a child and sexual relationship with another man. And until she receives a church anullment, she cannot participate in - I'm not going to call it the right thing - but church services such as communion and last rights.

Once she looked into the anullment, but when she saw how personal some of the questions were, and some of the actions they try to take (e.g. contacting the ex, if you know their contact info), she decided it wasn't worth it, that what they were asking her to share really was no one's business but her own, and came to the conslusion that - ultimately - there was only one "being" that really needed to know what happened, and it already knew.

Wheetsin: Well my first husband didn't physically beat me, but there was definitely some abuse, both physical and mental.

When I realized that the hunk I had just met was a Catholic, I decided I shouldn't date him for the very reason that you stated; I was a divorced woman with a child. We were both transplants to Virginia from the Southwest and knew very few people. We kept seeing each other in group situations and we both decided that we could see each other and go places together without marriage in mind. Well that didn't work out the way we planned it.

I worked in the Attorney General's office in Richmond and knew someone who was personal friends with the Priest in Washington, D.C. who was the ultimate decision-maker for the Catholic Church in the U.S. with regard to marriage, annulment, divorce, etc. When we got an appointment and sat down in his office and told him that we were in love and that we wanted to get married, he grinned and said, "Well, we don't excommunicate for that anymore." I nearly fell off my chair. He went on to tell us that if John decided to marry me, he would no longer be able to partake of communion, or of any of the sacraments in the Church. He said that they wouldn't ban him from attending services, but that in their eyes, he was not someone who would be eligible to be a Catholic the way he had been. And as for me, I would not be eligible to go through instructions to become a Catholic, nor would I be able to ever become a Catholic.

We got married in a non-denominational University chapel by a Judge who was a friend. We lived in Petersburg, VA, at that time a very conservative parish. They would not allow my son (even after John formally adopted him) to attend pre-school or parocial school at the Catholic Church we had attended before and after we were married. There were non-Catholic children who were allowed to attend, but none whose parents were openly defiant of the Church doctrine against divorce, as we obviously were.

When we moved to a small town in Arizona, the Priests were far more liberal and accommodating to their parishioners. We attended classes set up for, shall I say disenfranchised, couples. We petitioned the Church for an annulment of my first marriage. With plenty of money involved, and lots of questionnairs completed by my entire family, as well as my ex and his family, I was granted an annulment by the Catholic Church. John could now take communion and I could consider becoming a Catholic (like my children).

Several other things had happened in the meantime, like a Priest in Lubbock denying my brother-in-law and sister-in-law getting their baby christened because they had not been using envelopes since they moved into the city and started attending the Church there. (They had moved to Lubbock during her pregnancy, she was unable to go every Sunday, and they just had not taken the time or effort to register yet.) Both of them were strong Catholics with Catholic schooling and from very devout Catholic families.

My experiences are not as uncommon as I used to think they were.

My husband and I have been very fortunate to have had only great experiences within the Catholic church. Our priests have helped make our marriage as good as it is; they have encouraged us to have a healthy and lusty sex life with each other, they have helped us give respect to each other, to our children, and to others in our community, and their guidance has pulled us through so many of the natural ups and downs of life. We just celebrated our 38th wedding anniversary, and our faith in our church and our love for each other has only gotten deeper and better with time. I know that other people may not have the same experiences, and I respect other's feelings about this subject, but I just had to add my positive ones.

Karen

My husband and I have been very fortunate to have had only great experiences within the Catholic church. Our priests have helped make our marriage as good as it is; they have encouraged us to have a healthy and lusty sex life with each other, they have helped us give respect to each other, to our children, and to others in our community, and their guidance has pulled us through so many of the natural ups and downs of life. We just celebrated our 38th wedding anniversary, and our faith in our church and our love for each other has only gotten deeper and better with time. I know that other people may not have the same experiences, and I respect other's feelings about this subject, but I just had to add my positive ones.

Karen

To me, this is a good example of when it works!

Well I went to Catholic school up until college, and one of the main reasons why Catholicism never made sense to me was that they said my mother was a sinner for divorcing my father. Now I was only 9 years old, but I knew right then that the Catholic church was full of crap.

Catholicism and most other religions do subvert women and view them as inferior to men. Just look at how women are not allowed to hold the highest positions in the church. It's bullshit. I knew it when I was 9 and I know it now.

To the Christians on this thread who say that Christianity does not view women as inferior, please explain why, when I listen to Christian talk radio, they are constantly saying women should not work outside the home and that a woman's place is a wife and mother? That is subverting women, period. Every time I hear it, I shudder when I think of the poor innocent little girls being brainwashed with this nonsense. I wonder how many girls who could have made great and wonderful contributions to society through medicine or science and who will never have that chance because all their lives they are taught to believe that women should never work outside the home; their hopes, dreams, and intellect thwarted at every turn.

I am very grateful that even at 8 and 9 years old, I had the self-awareness to know that what I was being taught was a bunch of crap.

I wish organized religions would stop their denigration and subjugation of women.

We just celebrated our 38th wedding anniversary, and our faith in our church and our love for each other has only gotten deeper and better with time. I know that other people may not have the same experiences, and I respect other's feelings about this subject, but I just had to add my positive ones.

Karen

Me, too, Karen. I have been widowed twice and the church was incredibly supportive of me in my times of grief, and of my second marriage. My husband was non-Catholic and divorced, but our priest wouldn't allow us to pay for his annulment, although we offered. His ex-wife was Methodist and they had two children, so I asked the advocate if she could call before the papers just "showed up" in the ex-wife's mailbox and explain that this did not call into question the legal status of their marriage, or the legitimacy of their children. She was happy to do that and the whole thing went so much more smoothly, I think, because she was so considerate and nice.

To the Christians on this thread who say that Christianity does not view women as inferior, please explain why, when I listen to Christian talk radio, they are constantly saying women should not work outside the home and that a woman's place is a wife and mother?

Short answer for me, I think most talk radio is BS. I've never been told that I should be a wife and mother and not work outside the home, if that's what I want. I believe that God gives us all different talents, and wants us to use them. No matter what our gender.