This topic was brought up in the HPV vaccine thread, and I wanted to get everybody's opinion on it.

I think that sex before marriage is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it, along with living together, gives couples a chance to see what their marriage might be like. Sex is a huge part of marriage, and bad sex can undermine a marriage, IMO. Plus, it helps you figure out if what you are feeling is true love or just plain lust.

I personally believe that the push to make teens abstain until marriage may actually be contributing to the high divorce rate. If people think that they have to be married to have sex, I think they might rush into a marriage because they might not know the difference between lust and love. Take my former roommate, for example. She and her boyfriend dated for 4 years before they got married. To my knowledge, they were both virgins when they married. They separated within 6 months of marrying and were officially divorced the day before their first anniversary. I really believe that the disgrace in having sex before marriage and living together (he was Mormon) contributed to the failure of their marriage. I think that if they had been allowed to see what each other was truly like, apart from dates, they wouldn't have gotten married.

gadgetlady: It sounds like you've been very fortunate to have had nothing but great experiences with your church. Remember, my experiences that I spoke about were from many years ago. I have no way of knowing how those churches discuss marriage and men's and women's roles in the family today. And it also sounds like you weren't involved in a church during the time I was referring to. I am glad if the organized religions of today are helping women and men understand that they can live their lives however they want and still be a good Christian spouse.

I grew up in the Catholic church, so I did have early experiences -- albeit I was not a believer at that time. I even attended and got my B.S. from a Catholic university -- and took classes on marriage (I thought it was pretty funny that many of the classes were taught by a Catholic priest -- "expert in marriage" -- who obviously wasn't married but later left the church to run off and get married to a nun). My parents are devout Catholics, going so far as to seek out Latin masses rather than English, but I still never experienced any discussion ever of women and marriage in any way other than positive and affirming.

gadgetlady: It sounds like you've been very fortunate to have had nothing but great experiences with your church.

One other thing -- I wouldn't attend a church that wasn't teaching Biblical standards about marriage and women. I have left churches because I didn't agree with the teaching, so it's more than being fortunate. It's being picky, too -- even though I've never attended a church that preached that women are inferior, I would leave immediately if I did.

I was just thinking about this subject and I remembered a joke my dad used to tell when I was young -- in the '70s. As he told the joke, he and my mom were watching the news and reporting on the feminist movement. He turned to her and said, "Do you want to be equal to me?" She responded back, "Why would I want to come down to your level?"

I love kids because they take me outside of myself into a world of innocence and exploration. A new and fresh look on things. I know my kids have taught me more about myselfl than any other life experience, perhaps all of them combined.

Laurend, I refer to Proverbs 31 when I see women working outside the home and even owning thier own businesses. This is not subserviant to any man, it even speaks to the husbands praise of his wife. If any church teaches that a womens place is only in the home, they to me are not truly Christian.

gadgetlady: I'm pretty sure that we're on the same wave length here. Sometimes it's hard to get there when we have to use words without inflection and body language to give clues.

By the way, I didn't say (or mean to) that the churches where I had bad experiences said that women are inferior. I said that they taught that women should be subservient to men. That women should do all they can to help their husband, etc., although they didn't say that men must treat women in any particular way.

The churches I've attended have emphasized the FULL verse: Ephesians 5:24-26, Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

What this is asking wives to do is in the context of the church submitting to Christ as its head, not submitting to everything the husband says like it's the law of the land, most especially abuse, both mental and physical. What it's asking husbands to do is much harder -- because what Christ did for the church was to DIE for it. I think the entirety of the verse speaks to mutual respect between husbands and wives. Any church that talks about what women need to do but not how men need to respect their wives is cherry-picking its doctrine and taking God's word out of context.

Yes, gadgetlady, that's just what they're doing. You've been fortunate enough not to be exposed to a church that would do that. I unfortunately have not.

I have had two civil marriage ceremonies and 3 Catholic weddings (and I've never been divorced!).

I told each and every officiant to leave out "obey" because I would NOT promise to obey any man this side of heaven.

They all complied.

Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

What is the reason that women should submit to men in everything? Why is the man the "head" of everything exactly?

When one "submits" they are yielding the authority and power of another.

Why do men have authority over women? Why do men have power over women?

Do you agree with this church statement? Are you ok with always yielding to the authority of your husband? And if so, why?

This statement absoultely places women in a subjugated position under the man, and it espouses the viewpoint that women are secondary to men, and are thus inferior.

I am fascinated that a modern woman would even consider allowing herself to be diminished in this way, and to be held in second place beneath her husband.

This is an excellent example of how organized religion subverts women.

Sunta, thanks! You did a much better job of saying how I feel than I have been able to.

I've actually had people tell me that I'm selfish because I don't want children. Excuse me?!?!?! What's selfish is having children because you think you must have 2.3 children to have the appearance of a successful life and yet you don't have the time, money, or energy to raise them well.

I never could understand how deciding not to have kids was selfish. To me, having them to please your parents, or society or such is selfish, and not fair to the kids.

Amen! Considering all of the consequences when deciding to have children is something many people also fail to do. That is selfish as well as stupid.

And I love kids. I babysat as a teenager, and honestly when I was a kid I just assumed I would have them. Then grew up, and realized I just am not cut out to be a mom.

I have a 5 year old niece I adore more then I ever thought I could. I saw something the other day about having someone in your life you would run into a burning building to save, and she was the first person who popped into my mind. I love being Auntie Lisa, but even with her, I'm aware I wouldn't want to be the parent.

Lisa: I think you're very smart. I was one of those people who had a child for all the wrong reasons. It was very stupid and I regretted it, big time. I love my DS of course, but that doesn't take away from the fact that I should not have made the decision for the reasons that I did.