Odds of long-term success

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

The problem with this study is that it is looking at five years back (starting in '03 or '04). For the gastric band and banding follow-up care and protocol development that was light years ago. The APS and APL were introduced in '07.

Many elements of the pre and post care are now designed specifically to reduce complications.

This is a common flaw when looking at studies, whether independent, peer-reviewed, or not.

Again, after what happened to my sister and brother where much of the weight has come back, it is a complete myth that RnY and/or Sleeve cannot be defeated. I know this from flat-out first hand experience.

First of all I never claimed one could not regain with bypass or the sleeve. What I disputed was the claim that the band is safest and the most effective WLS type out there. It is not.

You are absolutely right, there are no long term studies with the new band. Lots of big claims but nothing to back up those claims. We won't know about the latest version of band for years to come. Today people are guinea pigs, just like I was for the smaller band.

Did you know that many doctors in Canada are going back to the 4cc bands because people are not losing well with the mega bands?

First it was the mesh band, that didn't work. Then the non adjustable band, that didn't work. Then the small adjustable band, nothing changed really. Now the mega adjustable band. I don't know, from reading revision boards I'm not seeing where the fewer slips and erosion promises are panning out.

How can a band maker make a band that causes fewer erosions when it *still* a total unknown what causes erosion? Personally I don't think it is the band, I think it is something in the operating room. So how can you fix erosion when you have no idea what causes it? Yet the new bands make these claims.

The new bands had gazillions of dollars in advertising and big promises that there is no way the band manufacturers can fill.

One other point, when I was determining which surgical firm I would use, I talked to a group out of Northern Va and Maryland that has performed around 3000 Lap Bands and thousands and thousands of RnY also.

They said they have tweaked their care to the point where there is now no substantial statistical difference between APS/APL and RnY at the 3 to 4 year mark. The RnY lost quicker initially but bounced back up as the more steady trajectory of the Adjustable band was clearly more healthy.

The key is the follow-up care and teaching people how to use whatever tool they have.

I'd have to see how they go about tracking their numbers before blindly believing any doctor's claims. I've been watching doctors make big claims for 25 years now. I'd have to see the details before I'd believe them.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Nurse09:

You have posted many times that the band is the safest and most effective WLS on the market today. I asked you to provide proof of this. I know you are reading, you were reading this very thread yesterday morning. So are you still looking for peer reviewed studies that show you are correct?

I asked you to prove your own claims. Where's the proof?

I also asked you to defend your claim that the sleeve has been proven to be ineffective although it's the fastest growing surgery today. Where is that proof?

Instead of providing proof to back up your claims you just disappear. Why is that?

Yes, I hold you to higher standards than I would others. You claim to be a nurse, your profile shows you wearing your cap. People put more stock into a medical professional and when you post sheer nonsense I am going to call you on it each and every time. If you are a professional (and since you are a nurse I certainly hope you are professional) you will either admit you posted incorrect information due to human error or you will post your proof. That just isn't asking too much.

You have lectured me time and time again on what I need to do to lose weight. I have lost 132#. I am at goal, I have a BMI of 20. I have maintained this for 1.5 years. In another post you wrote that you have lost 59# in 16 months. What's the deal here? You keep telling me that I need to follow my doctors instructions. You tell me, who followed their doctors instructions? You or me?

Cheers.

[Albacheeser 0]

I'd have to see how they go about tracking their numbers before blindly believing any doctor's claims. I've been watching doctors make big claims for 25 years now. I'd have to see the details before I'd believe them.

I thought it was obvious since they make more money with the RnY that it would be a point of candor to admit that that the LB was working as well. Thus, it would make no sense not to believe them.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, you've obviously done a lot of research, but after reading all of your posts I get the general sense, with all due respect, that blosmtx and others are persons looking for validation for a decision already made rather than using the research in more objective fashion to find a knowable fact. In business, salesman are taught that people ALWAYS make a purchase decision with their right brain. They like to read through facts and figures, but ultimately decide with their gut. (no pun intended)

But that's fine, do what you feel is right. No one here will stop you or judge you.

But it is naive to the extreme to think you would not get a little push back from recent bandsters when you are, in effect, flaming a Lap Band board.

If you want validation, go over to the Sleeve board for heaven's sake.

I need validation for what I have done so I'm staying here on the LapBand board. I'm not going over to the Sleeve board to look for validation in NOT getting a Sleeve. Thanks for nothing blosmtx.

Now that I look back on this entire thread, it all seems so absurd for it to even be on this board.

But no, you have to come over here to the frickin' LapBandTalk board, to research us bandsters into a fit of maniacal depression. Great, I've got a gun to my head now. Are you frickin' happy?

Thanks for nothing WASaBubbleButt. I guess now you're just a hard @$$. (couldn't help it)

With all due respect and no offense intended. If any offense has been taken I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Albacheeser

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I thought it was obvious since they make more money with the RnY that it would be a point of candor to admit that that the LB was working as well. Thus, it would make no sense not to believe them.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, you've obviously done a lot of research, but after reading all of your posts I get the general sense, with all due respect, that blosmtx and others are persons looking for validation for a decision already made rather than using the research in more objective fashion to find a knowable fact. In business, salesman are taught that people ALWAYS make a purchase decision with their right brain. They like to read through facts and figures, but ultimately decide with their gut. (no pun intended)

But that's fine, do what you feel is right. No one here will stop you or judge you.

But it is naive to the extreme to think you would not get a little push back from recent bandsters when you are, in effect, flaming a Lap Band board.

If you want validation, go over to the Sleeve board for heaven's sake.

I need validation for what I have done so I'm staying here on the LapBand board. I'm not going over to the Sleeve board to look for validation in NOT getting a Sleeve. Thanks for nothing blosmtx.

Now that I look back on this entire thread, it all seems so absurd for it to even be on this board.

But no, you have to come over here to the frickin' LapBandTalk board, to research us bandsters into a fit of maniacal depression. Great, I've got a gun to my head now. Are you frickin' happy?

Thanks for nothing WASaBubbleButt. I guess now you're just a hard @$$. (couldn't help it)

With all due respect and no offense intended. If any offense has been taken I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks.

Quite frankly I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. I don't know what a push back is. I do not understand what your problem is with blosmtx.

Why is it that bandsters confusing "flaming" with "stats and facts"? Why is that threatening? If you have done your research and you chose the right surgery type for you why is it a threat when the same research you read pre op is presented for noobs?

What makes you think that doctors make more money with bypass than banding? They can do one bypass in 2.5 hours or they can do 5 bands in 2.5 hours. Hello? How does this make more money for them? With bands doctors have business for life in aftercare. With bypass people typically go to their PCP for follow up labs.

I have had a band and a sleeve. The band was not for me, the sleeve is great FOR ME. I wish I had the US long term studies on bands and sleeves when I was banded, I didn't have that honor because they did not exist at that time. Both just came out last year. I want others to have ALL the facts and not the feel good, "bands are safer than anything in the whole wide world," line of crap that simply is not true.

It seems to me that you are only wanting positives and not neutrality on this board. I ask you, is that fair to those researching their surgery choice? It also seems to me that you are putting your desire for validation in your surgery choice over noobs doing their research. How is that right?

And finally, I am not responsible for your choice in surgery types, I am not responsible for your mood. I am not responsible for validating your surgery options. Don't even try to blame me. You are responsible for those things, 100%.

[Headhunter 6]

Quite frankly I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. I don't know what a push back is. I do not understand what your problem is with blosmtx.

Why is it that bandsters confusing "flaming" with "stats and facts"? Why is that threatening? If you have done your research and you chose the right surgery type for you why is it a threat when the same research you read pre op is presented for noobs?

What makes you think that doctors make more money with bypass than banding? They can do one bypass in 2.5 hours or they can do 5 bands in 2.5 hours. Hello? How does this make more money for them? With bands doctors have business for life in aftercare. With bypass people typically go to their PCP for follow up labs.

I have had a band and a sleeve. The band was not for me, the sleeve is great FOR ME. I wish I had the US long term studies on bands and sleeves when I was banded, I didn't have that honor because they did not exist at that time. Both just came out last year. I want others to have ALL the facts and not the feel good, "bands are safer than anything in the whole wide world," line of crap that simply is not true.

It seems to me that you are only wanting positives and not neutrality on this board. I ask you, is that fair to those researching their surgery choice? It also seems to me that you are putting your desire for validation in your surgery choice over noobs doing their research. How is that right?

And finally, I am not responsible for your choice in surgery types, I am not responsible for your mood. I am not responsible for validating your surgery options. Don't even try to blame me. You are responsible for those things, 100%.

What SHE said. :thumbup:

HH

[Albacheeser 0]

Quite frankly I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. I don't know what a push back is. I do not understand what your problem is with blosmtx.

The term "push back" is a commonly used term that means, amongst other things "a defensive reaction in response to a perceived provocation." For example, when one asks their children to go to bed, one often gets "push back" from them

The rest of your post explains my point for me. If you found nirvana with the Sleeve, then why are you even here? Go to the Sleeve board.

If the person that backed out of the band to go with the Sleeve wanted validation and/or support than why would they not go to the Sleeve board? Maybe I'm missing something.

Generally, what I have been responding to here is the nature of the pro-sleeve posters that goes much farther than supporting the person but also engaging bandsters in superfluous and antagonous debate about research.

The question I honestly have is why would a Sleevester feel the need to come and engage bandsters when you claim to be happy about your choice and respect the choices of others? The answer must be that you're looking for validation. If that is the case, then, I'm simply stating that this is the wrong place to look for it.

By the way, everything I said about my "mood" etc. was complete hyperbole and exaggeration. I'm perfectly happy with where I am. I was simply demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Albacheeser

[keithf 2]

This has long since turned personal. I question the propriety of airing it here.

[Albacheeser 0]

What makes you think that doctors make more money with bypass than banding? They can do one bypass in 2.5 hours or they can do 5 bands in 2.5 hours. Hello? How does this make more money for them? With bands doctors have business for life in aftercare. With bypass people typically go to their PCP for follow up labs.

That is demonstrably not accurate. The research I have done says that the LapBand takes 45mins to 1 hr. (mine took about an hour) and RnY takes 2.5 hrs or so. And they charge accordingly. The difference in the nature of the surgery is why the get more. The point is that the surgical firm has NO axe to grind either way. They can make money either way.

My surgery was substantially less expensive than my sisters.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Albacheeser

[Albacheeser 0]

This has long since turned personal. I question the propriety of airing it here.

I agree and don't feel comfortable about it, I just got to the point where it became so absurd for me to look for LapBand support on a board where many belittle bandsters and those that support the procedure. So I got frustrated (I'm A.D.D. and suffer from low frustration tolerance. - not an excuse just a reason)

I was warned to stick with obesityhelp.com by my surgeon and now I know why.

I apologize if anyone has been offended.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

The rest of your post explains my point for me. If you found nirvana with the Sleeve, then why are you even here? Go to the Sleeve board.

Why wouldn't I come here? I have spent more time banded than I have sleeved. I have a lot of information. There are a lot of struggling bandsters. Why wouldn't I offer what I know? There is also a section for band complications and band removal, why wouldn't I post there?

I think you have made it clear that you only want people posting that will validate your choice, tell only the upsides of surgery, and never dare tell the negative sides. It's not going to happen. That's not how message boards work.

People who are researching need all sides of the issue, they need to know the good and the bad before they can make a good decision. They need to read links, studies, talk to those that both like and dislike the band. That's called research.

If the person that backed out of the band to go with the Sleeve wanted validation and/or support than why would they not go to the Sleeve board? Maybe I'm missing something.

I thought the OPs post was a fantastic post! They were wanting info before jumping into something which is what a great many people do. If she was planning on a band but was unsure, why is it a horror for her (him? her?) to post on both boards? I think you are being quite unreasonable.

Generally, what I have been responding to here is the nature of the pro-sleeve posters that goes much farther than supporting the person but also engaging bandsters in superfluous and antagonous debate about research.

No, we disagree. When a person who claims to be a nurse is spreading around very incorrect medical and statistical information it needs to be corrected. People tend to put more stock into info posted by someone with a license relating to medicine vs. someone who does not. When that information is dead wrong and even the band makers are not making those claims, it needs to be pointed out and corrected.

The question I honestly have is why would a Sleevester feel the need to come and engage bandsters when you claim to be happy about your choice and respect the choices of others? The answer must be that you're looking for validation. If that is the case, then, I'm simply stating that this is the wrong place to look for it.

Because I don't like closed perspectives and closed worlds. I also post on a revision board, an RNY board, a general board, an "at goal" board, sleeve boards, all kinds of boards. I'm not one to stop learning and hide my head in the sand. I want to know everything related to WLS. Don't you? I'm not sure what I would need validation for. I'm healthy, I'm at goal, I'm maintaining a 20BMI well for over a year and a half, I can eat anything I want, I have no food restrictions, what is it specifically that you think I need validation? Please, be specific.

This has long since turned personal. I question the propriety of airing it here.

See above.

That is demonstrably not accurate. The research I have done says that the LapBand takes 45mins to 1 hr. (mine took about an hour) and RnY takes 2.5 hrs or so. And they charge accordingly. The difference in the nature of the surgery is why the get more. The point is that the surgical firm has NO axe to grind either way. They can make money either way.

My surgery was substantially less expensive than my sisters.

You may not understand how an OR works. The time the surgeon is actually in the OR working on a patient is about 30 minutes unless the surgeon is unskilled and a dolt. It takes time to put the patient to sleep, prep the patient, drape the patient, then the surgeon comes in and does surgery. He leaves, the anesthesiologist wakes up the patient and he's taken to recovery. The surgeon's job is about 30 minutes, the patient is in the OR for about 45-60 minutes.

I agree and don't feel comfortable about it, I just got to the point where it became so absurd for me to look for LapBand support on a board where many belittle bandsters and those that support the procedure. So I got frustrated (I'm A.D.D. and suffer from low frustration tolerance. - not an excuse just a reason)

I was warned to stick with obesityhelp.com by my surgeon and now I know why.

I apologize if anyone has been offended.

If you think OH is any different, you are in error. Message boards are what they are. Period. Posting stats and facts isn't belittling banded folks. It's called adult posting. What it does seem to be is threatening to you for some reason. You made the right decision for you, so what's your problem?

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I was warned to stick with obesityhelp.com by my surgeon and now I know why.

Heh... I have to laugh. I was just over at OH band boards (gasp!) and I was reminded of this thread. Just from last week.

Would you do it again? Everyone please answer

Yessssss, I can see why your surgeon suggests you post on OH. ;o)

[lellow 1,713]

Okay,

I usually stay out of these threads once it looks like it's becoming band vs sleeve (and there are getting to be more and more of them recently) but I have to admit that I too am dismayed at how often a simple question by a newbie turns into a to-and-fro about how the sleeve is superior to the band and vice versa ("and here are the stats to prove it etc etc").

I know there are potential complications with the band, as there are with most WLS (and 1% vs 10% just doesn't matter when you're the one affected, IMO). I also know there appears that generally people have more success with the sleeve (on average however, so individually, it's still an unknown until after you've had the surgery). The sleeve, by all accounts, does in fact seem to be the newest and brightest thing in WLS, just as the band was not too long ago.

But I am very happy to be banded. I did not have complications, it wasn't hard for me to lose the weight and I had great success with the band. It continues to be 'easy' for me, and if asked, I would recommend it, with the caveat that the person do their own research and be aware of the risks (as you would with ANY surgery).

I would like to be able to tell someone who's wondering if the band works that, yes, it does, without having to defend that assertion with statistics, science and comparative studies. Why would I have to? I know it works because it worked for me.

I would like to explain that I decided on the band because the sleeve was still unproven at the time, or that I didn't (at the time) want to have such invasive surgery, without having to defend my own, very personal, reasoning. Those WERE the reasons I chose the band. Why can't I say so?

I also would have hated it, when I was thinking about getting the band, to have had my thread degenerate into a spat between people who forget I'm even here. If that had happened, and I got scared off the band, I wouldn't have lost the weight I have.

So if someone asks about the band, I will respond positively because it's what I have and it's what has worked for me. I then hope that it doesn't end up like this thread has, where everyone feels like they have to be right, when we all know that it's very possible that depending on the individual, either, both or neither could be right.

So enough already with this 'us' and 'them' b*llshit that seems to be happening more and more around here. I know I'm not the only one sick to death of it.

Edited August 15, 2009 by lellow

[Elisabethsew 50]

Okay,

I usually stay out of these threads once it looks like it's becoming band vs sleeve (and there are getting to be more and more of them recently) but I have to admit that I too am dismayed at how often a simple question by a newbie turns into a to-and-fro about how the sleeve is superior to the band and vice versa ("and here are the stats to prove it etc etc").

I know there are potential complications with the band, as there are with most WLS (and 1% vs 10% just doesn't matter when you're the one affected, IMO). I also know there appears that generally people have more success with the sleeve (on average however, so individually, it's still an unknown until after you've had the surgery). The sleeve, by all accounts, does in fact seem to be the newest and brightest thing in WLS, just as the band was not too long ago.

But I am very happy to be banded. I did not have complications, it wasn't hard for me to lose the weight and I had great success with the band. It continues to be 'easy' for me, and if asked, I would recommend it, with the caveat that the person do their own research and be aware of the risks (as you would with ANY surgery).

I would like to be able to tell someone who's wondering if the band works that, yes, it does, without having to defend that assertion with statistics, science and comparative studies. Why would I have to? I know it works because it worked for me.

I would like to explain that I decided on the band because the sleeve was still unproven at the time, or that I didn't (at the time) want to have such invasive surgery, without having to defend my own, very personal, reasoning. Those WERE the reasons I chose the band. Why can't I say so?

I also would have hated it, when I was thinking about getting the band, to have had my thread degenerate into a spat between people who forget I'm even here. If that had happened, and I got scared off the band, I wouldn't have lost the weight I have.

So if someone asks about the band, I will respond positively because it's what I have and it's what has worked for me. I then hope that it doesn't end up like this thread has, where everyone feels like they have to be right, when we all know that it's very possible that depending on the individual, either, both or neither could be right.

So enough already with this 'us' and 'them' b*llshit that seems to be happening more and more around here. I know I'm not the only one sick to death of it.

I don't think it's fair to present an all or none picture of this thread. I have had the band and revised to a sleeve after 3 years of band intolerance. I know several people who have the band and continue to do well with it.

You stated you might have had the sleeve if more were known at the time that you had your band placed. I agree with you as I would have also. Knowing how much better the VSG surgery is for ME and having had the band and some of it's associated complications, my desire is to let those considering the band that it's NOT the only WLS option.

Bottom line? Figure out what type of eater you are, talk to surgeons who perform various types of WLS, do independent research, and make an informed decision for YOURSELF.

[lellow 1,713]

Actually I'm not sure I might have had a sleeve if more had been known about it. I might have still had the band. But at the time, I didn't even consider a sleeve because of the band, esp here in Australia, was proven to work. And by all accounts, it has worked for me, so while I did suffer from 'sleeve-envy' for a while when I used to read all the posts about how the sleeve was purportedly superior to the band, I can't really knock my band because, well, it did what I hoped it would do. :biggrin:

I do wish to clarify, though, that I don't expect or want threads to become all about the band or all about the sleeve. What I do hope for is for them not to keep becoming about one vs the other in such an argumentative way, because I do think it's quite off-putting, to me and I'm sure to many others.

Because as you say, some people do better with the band, and others with the sleeve. I think both views can be represented without it turning into a spat, surely?

Edited August 15, 2009 by lellow

[Elisabethsew 50]

Actually I'm not sure I might have had a sleeve if more had been known about it. I might have still had the band. But at the time, I didn't even consider a sleeve because of the band, esp here in Australia, was proven to work. And by all accounts, it has worked for me, so while I did suffer from 'sleeve-envy' for a while when I used to read all the posts about how the sleeve was purportedly superior to the band, I can't really knock my band because, well, it did what I hoped it would do. :biggrin:

Then there was no reason for you to have had "sleeve envy" in the first place. Had my band not effected my life so negatively and worked as yours did, I would still have mine.

I do wish to clarify, though, that I don't expect or want threads to become all about the band or all about the sleeve. What I do hope for is for them not to keep becoming about one vs the other in such an argumentative way, because I do think it's quite off-putting, to me and I'm sure to many others.

People are passionate about their choice of a weight loss surgery so it's natural to have a certain level of argument. What is NOT good is when people make claims that are NOT based on personal experience that they can't back up with peer reviewed research. Those who DO have research to back up a non-personal claim (or a personal one) are often labeled as argumentative when, in actuality, they are educating others.

Because as you say, some people do better with the band, and others with the sleeve. I think both views can be represented without it turning into a spat, surely?

Absolutely, but I don't limit discussion to band and/or sleeve. Having had both of those surgeries, I can speak from personal experience. RNY and DS are two other WLS procedures that might be best for some. One needs to pick the best surgery for him/her and not choose a surgery because it worked for others.