IF the economy is the #1 issue in America why would you vote for McCain? He stated not long ago (Sept 15,2008) that the fundamentals of our economy is good:blink:. Seriously? Then just today or yesterday, he said the problem with the economy is corporate greed and would have a commission (much like the like 9/11 commission) study it. WTF?! So basically he is saying he doesn't want to deal with the economy! AND lets not forget his TOP economic advisor stated just a few months ago in JUNE/JULY of THIS year that there was nothing wrong with our economy and that the American people were a bunch of "whiners". Does this sound like a person who is for the people? It is just infuriating to me that this race has become "tight"! I mean it's pretty bad when Karl Rove says the McCain campaign is lying and running a bad campaign!! UGH I will never understand what people see in McCain!

Any way you look at it a baby's life is taken when an abortion occures. Who will stand for the choice of the unborn. I will I choose life for the baby over the choice of a person who desires not to be inconvenienced by having to bring a new life into the world. Any way you want to twist it around it is still choosing to take the life of an unborn child.

I call that murder!!!

Call it whatever you want...doesn't make you any less wrong, not to mention offensive.

I have to agree with luluc and will not be discussing abortion anymore, not on this thread or any other. Topics always go here and there on threads but there is no use trying to discuss anything with people who yell out "baby killer" and "murderer!" Instead of having an intelligent, civil discussion. It's not worth the time or effort.

Your accusations don't change my vote or the outcome of this election.

Wow. There was a discussion early on in the abortion thread about abortionists who had become pro-life. There was a HUGE misunderstanding and a lot of name calling because I was talking about the fact that some abortionists have changed their opinion and are now pro-life. What it boiled down to, after many days (possibly weeks, I don't recall) of ugly posts was that the person I was talking to misinterpreted the word "abortionist" -- he thought I meant those in favor of abortion, not those who performed abortions.

The point of what I'm saying is that words matter, and how we say things matters as well.

While I agree with Sandy on this issue (obviously), I don't think it's a good idea to call people who are pro-abortion, "baby killers." I believe they support abortion, but I don't believe they participate in the actual act (necessarily).

The waters can get a little muddy when you have politicians that fight to legalize (or keep legal) the procedure, because one could make the claim that without them, there wouldn't be abortion (or it would be reduced). We call Hitler a killer, but do we know if he actually participated in the individual killing -- or just ordered it? I don't know. We hold Manson responsible for the deaths that weren't at his hand, but at the hand of his followers. There is something of a correlation there between these issues and those who believe abortion is the deliberate taking of a human life.

Obama is, I think, an unusual case, because of his opposition to laws that would require babies born alive after botched abortions to not receive mandatory life-saving techniques. Some will argue that this is not what he did, but if you look at the voting record and the language of the bills he opposed, it's quite clear. His position on the born-alive infant protection bill in Illinois is why I think he inspires such vehement language on this matter.

gadget - every political thread is now monopolized by the abortion issue.

take it to that thread... PLEASE.

at this stage of the election process - pretty foolish to think those of us interested in current events, don't know where the candidates stand on the issue. your for or against the right to legal abortions - period.

aren't you the least bit distressed that many with opposing views of yours are leaving these threads by the dozens - so not deal w/the dogma spewed hourly which degrades them?

if your interested in talking w/those w/your shared values - might i suggest you ask the moderators / alex to create a forum just for your cause. it's gotten quite annoying, as much as i have enjoyed prior debates.

gadget - every political thread is now monopolized by the abortion issue.

take it to that thread... PLEASE.

at this stage of the election process - pretty foolish to think those of us interested in current events, don't know where the candidates stand on the issue. your for or against the right to legal abortions - period.

aren't you the least bit distressed that many with opposing views of yours are leaving these threads by the dozens - so not deal w/the dogma spewed hourly which degrades them?

if your interested in talking w/those w/your shared values - might i suggest you ask the moderators / alex to create a forum just for your cause. it's gotten quite annoying, as much as i have enjoyed prior debates.

AMEN LuLu!!!

I'm SO glad that somebody finally said something!!!! :biggrin:

gadget - every political thread is now monopolized by the abortion issue.

take it to that thread... PLEASE.

at this stage of the election process - pretty foolish to think those of us interested in current events, don't know where the candidates stand on the issue. your for or against the right to legal abortions - period.

aren't you the least bit distressed that many with opposing views of yours are leaving these threads by the dozens - so not deal w/the dogma spewed hourly which degrades them?

if your interested in talking w/those w/your shared values - might i suggest you ask the moderators / alex to create a forum just for your cause. it's gotten quite annoying, as much as i have enjoyed prior debates.

I have a right to address issues in the thread in which they were posted. I wasn't planning on saying any more on the issue because there is another thread dedicated to it, but the issue was brought up here so I addressed it here. How dare you accuse me of spewing dogma which degrades people -- just because you disagree with me! There are plenty of people who have posted on both sides of the issue, but I'm the one spewing hourly dogma which degrades people and drives them away?

I did not bring up abortion on this thread. So stop attacking me.

I'm still fuming. Four people who disagree with Sandy's post don't get attacked for posting their POV about the issue, but when I do I am spewing and driving people away? Sandy posted something. People responded. I was one of them. If you don't like it, don't read it.

I have a right to address issues in the thread in which they were posted. I wasn't planning on saying any more on the issue because there is another thread dedicated to it, but the issue was brought up here so I addressed it here. How dare you accuse me of spewing dogma which degrades people -- just because you disagree with me! There are plenty of people who have posted on both sides of the issue, but I'm the one spewing hourly dogma which degrades people and drives them away?

I did not bring up abortion on this thread. So stop attacking me.

oh just get over yourself already.

i said "the dogma" not yours specifically - but if your feeling slighted, well sorry!

you of all people should not accuse me of attacking, when i have been more than gracious in opposing view points of yours to bring it "back" to topic and hash debates out rationally.

go re-read my post:

aren't you the least bit distressed that many with opposing views of yours are leaving these threads by the dozens - so not deal w/the dogma spewed hourly which degrades them?

i'm MORE than happy you that you will leave the issue from this topic - maybe others will join back in.

I'm still fuming. Four people who disagree with Sandy's post don't get attacked for posting their POV about the issue, but when I do I am spewing and driving people away? Sandy posted something. People responded. I was one of them. If you don't like it, don't read it.

take a nap then...if your fuming,

if i don't like it - i shouldn't read it...hummm

but YOU have the right to post whatever you want in any thread , and we also have to like it or leave it....your losing it, not allowing for proper debate.

Gadgetlady was not the reason I left the thread (wait, I am still here!). The abortion issue will not be solved on Lapband talk. But it is an important issue to many people when deciding on which candidate to choose. It is a legitimate topic as long as insults are not thrown around.

luluc, I defected from the political threads, you are absolutely correct in stating why some people have left. I actually unsubscribed but peeked in when I was on the new posts page.

go re-read my post:

aren't you the least bit distressed that many with opposing views of yours are leaving these threads by the dozens - so not deal w/the dogma spewed hourly which degrades them?

This was posted after I presumably spewed my dogma, not after four people who agree with you spewed their dogma. So I still see it as directed at the pro-life position in general and me, specifically, because it was posted in response to something I said.

luluc

Abortion is a distraction so we do not discuss the topic of the thread. Voting for McCain. From what I can see from the fresh polls that came out today McCain needs all the distractions he can get.

Did I change the subject?

Any way you look at it a baby's life is taken when an abortion occures. Who will stand for the choice of the unborn. I will I choose life for the baby over the choice of a person who desires not to be inconvenienced by having to bring a new life into the world. Any way you want to twist it around it is still choosing to take the life of an unborn child.

I call that murder!!!

You are ****MODERATED EDIT due to personal insult

Edited October 22, 200817 yr by Jack
personal insult

Barney Frank: "There needs to be a focus on an immediate increase in spending" and "There are a lot of very rich people out there we can tax and recover some of this money." Incredible. "Deficit fear has to take a second seat." [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1Mazjm_A5k]YouTube - Barney Frank: Plenty of rich people that we can tax[/ame]

The pro choice movement is not about your right to choose a Ford over a Buick. It's ALL about abortion. So if you are pro choice, that means you are willing to allow others or yourself the right to kill children. We don't allow murder in this country, except the murder of the unborn. I can't understand why we allow it. I think Satan has blinded the eyes of some people to the reality of what they do. Some people are so self centered, that when it comes to making a decision as important as 'killing or not killing' their own unborn baby, they choose to do what's best for themselves without even taking into consideration the OTHER life growing inside them. It's so heart breaking. In this country, we are so concerned about the issues all around us that concern children, like headstart education, yet we don't even blink an eye for the 'headstart' of an unborn baby.