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With all the bickering about Christmas and the reason for the season...

Stolen from Rob on OH, written by Mike Nichols, no link available:

Midwinter's Eve: YULE

Their Christian friends are often quite surprised at how enthusiastically Pagans Celebrate the ‘Christmas’ season. Even though they prefer to use the word “Yule”, and their celebrations may peak a few days before the twenty-fifth, they nonetheless follow many of the traditional customs of the season: decorated trees, caroling, presents, Yule logs, and mistletoe. They might even go so far as putting up a ‘Nativity set’, though for them the three central characters are likely to be interpreted as Mother Nature, Father Time, and the baby Sun God. None of this will come as a surprise to anyone who knows the true history of the holiday, of course.

In fact, if truth be known, the holiday of Christmas has always been more Pagan than Christian, with its associations of Nordic divination, Celtic fertility rites, and Roman Mithraism. That is why John Calvin and other leaders of the Reformation abhorred it, why the Puritans refused to acknowledge it, much less celebrate it (to them, no day of the year could be more holy than the Sabbath), and why it was even made illegal in Boston! The holiday was already too closely associated with the birth of older Pagan Gods and heroes. And many of them (like Oedipus, Theseus, Hercules, Perseus, Jason, Dionysus, Apollo, Mithra, Horus, and even Arthur) possessed a narrative of birth, death, and resurrection that was uncomfortably close to that of Jesus. And to make matters worse, many of them predated the Christian Savior.

Ultimately, of course, the holiday is rooted deeply in the cycle of the year. It is the winter solstice that is being celebrated, seedtime of the year, the longest night and shortest day. It is the birthday of the new Sun King, the Son of God—by whatever name you choose to call him. On this darkest of nights, the Goddess becomes the Great Mother and once again gives birth. And it makes perfect poetic sense that on the longest night of the winter, “the dark night of their souls”, there springs the new spark of hope, the Sacred Fire, the Light of the World, the Coel Coeth.

That is why Pagans have as much right to claim this holiday as Christians. Perhaps even more so, since the Christians were rather late in laying claim to it, and tried more than once to reject it. There had been a tradition in the West that Mary bore the child Jesus on the twenty-fifth day, but no one could seem to decide on the month. Finally, in 320 C.E., the Catholic fathers in Rome decided to make it December, in an effort to co-opt the Mithraic celebration of the Romans, the Yule festival of the Saxons, and the midwinter revels of the Celts.

There was never much pretense that the date they finally chose was historically accurate. Shepherds just don’t “tend their flocks by night” in the high pastures in the dead of winter! But if one wishes to use the New Testament as historical evidence, this reference may point to sometime in the spring as the time of Jesus’ birth. This is because the lambing season occurs in the spring and that is the only time when shepherds are likely to “watch their flocks by night”—to make sure the lambing goes well. Knowing this, the Eastern half of the church continued to reject December 25, preferring a “movable date” fixed by their astrologers according to the moon.

Thus, despite its shaky start (for over three centuries, no one knew when Jesus was supposed to have been born!), December 25 finally began to catch on. By 529, it was a civic holiday, and all work or public business (except that of cooks, bakers, or any that contributed to the delight of the holiday) was prohibited by the Emperor Justinian. In 563, the Council of Braga forbade fasting on Christmas Day, and four years later the Council of Tours proclaimed the twelve days from December 25 to Epiphany as a sacred, festive season. This last point is perhaps the hardest to impress upon the modern reader, who is lucky to get a single day off work. Christmas, in the Middle Ages, was not a single day, but rather a period of twelve days, from December 25 to January 6. The Twelve Days of Christmas, in fact. It is certainly lamentable that the modern world has abandoned this approach, along with the popular Twelfth Night celebrations.

Of course, the Christian version of the holiday spread to many countries no faster than Christianity itself, which means that “Christmas” wasn’t celebrated in Ireland until the late fifth century; in England, Switzerland, and Austria until the seventh; in Germany until the eighth; and in the Slavic lands until the ninth and tenth. Not that these countries lacked their own midwinter celebrations. Long before the world had heard of Jesus, Pagans had been observing the season by bringing in the Yule log, wishing on it, and lighting it from the remains of last year’s log. Riddles were posed and answered, magic and rituals were practiced, wild boars were sacrificed and consumed along with large quantities of liquor, corn dollies were carried from house to house while caroling, fertility rites were practiced (girls standing under a sprig of mistletoe were subject to a bit more than a kiss), and divinations were cast for the coming spring. Many of these Pagan customs, in an appropriately watered-down form, have entered the mainstream of Christian celebration, though most celebrants do not realize (or do not mention it, if they do) their origins.

For modern Witches, Yule (from the Anglo-Saxon yula, meaning “wheel” of the year) is usually celebrated on the actual winter solstice, which may vary by a few days, though it usually occurs on or around December 21. It is a Lesser Sabbat or Low Holiday in the modern Pagan calendar, one of the four quarter days of the year, but a very important one. Pagan customs are still enthusiastically followed. Once, the Yule log had been the center of the celebration. It was lighted on the eve of the solstice (it should light on the first try) and must be kept burning for twelve hours, for good luck. It should be made of ash. Later, the Yule log was replaced by the Yule tree but, instead of burning it, lighted candles were placed on it. In Christianity, Protestants might claim that Martin Luther invented the custom, and Catholics might grant St. Boniface the honor, but the custom can demonstrably be traced back through the Roman Saturnalia all the way to ancient Egypt. Needless to say, such a tree should be cut down rather than purchased, and should be disposed of by burning, the proper way to dispatch any sacred object.

Along with the evergreen, the holly and the ivy and the mistletoe were important plants of the season, all symbolizing fertility and everlasting life. Mistletoe was especially venerated by the Celtic Druids, who cut it with a golden sickle on the sixth night of the moon, and believed it to be an aphrodisiac. (Magically—not medicinally! It’s highly toxic!) But aphrodisiacs must have been the smallest part of the Yuletide menu in ancient times, as contemporary reports indicate that the tables fairly creaked under the strain of every type of good food. And drink! The most popular of which was the “wassail cup”, deriving its name from the Anglo-Saxon term waes hael (be whole or hale).

Medieval Christmas folklore seems endless: that animals will all kneel down as the Holy Night arrives, that bees hum the 100th psalm on Christmas Eve, that a windy Christmas will bring good luck, that a person born on Christmas Day can see the Little People, that a cricket on the hearth brings good luck, that if one opens all the doors of the house at midnight all the evil spirits will depart, that you will have one lucky month for each Christmas pudding you sample, that the tree must be taken down by Twelfth Night or bad luck is sure to follow, that “if Christmas on a Sunday be, a windy winter they shall see”, that “hours of sun on Christmas Day, so many frosts in the month of May”, that one can use the Twelve Days of Christmas to predict the weather for each of the twelve months of the coming year, and so on.

Remembering that most Christmas customs are ultimately based upon older Pagan customs, it only remains for modern Pagans to reclaim their lost traditions. In doing so, they can share many common customs with their Christian friends, albeit with a slightly different interpretation. And, thus, they all share in the beauty of this most magical of seasons, when the Mother Goddess once again gives birth to the baby Sun God and sets the wheel in motion again. To conclude with a long-overdue paraphrase, “Goddess bless them, every one!

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I have belonged to this forum for over 6 mo. and made just a few posts in all that time, so apparently I do spend my time elsewhere. It doesn't appear that you do though. I do help out at Senior Centers, Salvation Army and Battered Women Shelters thank you. I appreciate your concern immensely, but I think the little time I spend here is well worth it. Now, what is it you do with all your time now besides cause trouble.

The one person that could answer WASa's post on OH about her friend is the one person with medical experience that will never answer her, so therefore I ask why did she question anyone there with her vast array of knowledge.

Thank you for your concern about me, but I'm not at all active on the forum and just happen to have a few days off work. I so appreciate your concern though.

Have a wonderful day.

Why is there always some dang person having to take a perfectly nice thread on this site and durning it into a damn fist fight? If you have an opinion about the topic, fine, but leave the name calling out of it. Maybe you need to go back to OH, because there are some of us who would like a little peace around this site for a while.;)

BTW Chelle, piece of work and Nancy are simply here because the excitement of causing trouble on OH is at an all time low. They have run everyone off of there already that used to be on that forum and now they come here seeking controversary (as friends no less). They are friends to no one and be on guard please. This forum was nice until they got here and the shit will soon hit the fan with them here. It has already started with the piece of work's theory on Pagans. I see she has shut her mouth on the subject, but it won't last. I know this tribe and it never ends. If you are smart you will rid this forum of the maliciousness that has arrived in the form of friends. I choose to call them on their errors, but I have no problems with the majority of people on Lapbandtalk who keep it real.

Blessings

What did I ever do to you? I am friendly with people on LBT and OH. I don't really even post enough over here to be singled out by anyone. Since you called me out by name, please go on and call out my 'errors' so that I might properly address them.

Looks like Dee is back. Dang.

Wow, that would explain my being called out by name here when I haven't posted much lately at all. <sigh>

From Wasa's post on OH

"Now she is in the hospital and they are suggesting she will erode in the future. She's shy of two weeks post op, irritation under the band, swelling, fever of 101.5, labs show no infection, and this is just a really weird case. I'm not sure what's going on. She had no stomach pain before falling, after falling x2 she has a great deal of stomach pain, no leaks, no perforations, none of that."

Looks to me like she never suggested this friend had eroded after 13 days.

Ladies, this discussion has become utterly nuts, and not in a good way! Let me recap: this thread was opened by an interesting and, as I understand it from my own reading on the issue, accurate commentary on the pagan roots of the Christmas festival. When one of the OPs chose to post what I felt was an off-the-wall description of pagan practices I wrote a response to this. (By the way, thanks for all the nice words y'all said, eh.) Since then this discussion has degenerated into a counter productive and, worse yet, very boring she said she said brawl.

This has been happening a lot on this site recently. There seems to be some kind of pissing match between a number of individuals going on and from what I am able to understand some of this has been imported from OH.

Stop it! Cut it out! It is boring for the rest of us and it is futile. You know that nobody is gonna win here in cyberland. Get a forken grip, will ya!

We have so much to discuss in the way of our own personal issues with fat, with the cultural expectations placed on larger people, with understanding more about why some of us are fatties and some of us are not.... We have here a forum where we meet and can talk about everything, be it ageing, plastic surgery, shopping, kids, pets, abortion, religion, the weather, the economy, politics, unwanted hair, recipes,...you name it and you can post it! This in-fighting is idiotic. And, like I said, it is very boring. And you can stop it! Each and everyone of you can refuse to go there.

Ladies, this discussion has become utterly nuts, and not in a good way! Let me recap: this thread was opened by an interesting and, as I understand it from my own reading on the issue, accurate commentary on the pagan roots of the Christmas festival. When one of the OPs chose to post what I felt was an off-the-wall description of pagan practices I wrote a response to this. (By the way, thanks for all the nice words y'all said, eh.) Since then this discussion has degenerated into a counter productive and, worse yet, very boring she said she said brawl.

This has been happening a lot on this site recently. There seems to be some kind of pissing match between a number of individuals going on and from what I am able to understand some of this has been imported from OH.

Stop it! Cut it out! It is boring for the rest of us and it is futile. You know that nobody is gonna win here in cyberland. Get a forken grip, will ya!

We have so much to discuss in the way of our own personal issues with fat, with the cultural expectations placed on larger people, with understanding more about why some of us are fatties and some of us are not.... We have here a forum where we meet and can talk about everything, be it ageing, plastic surgery, shopping, kids, pets, abortion, religion, the weather, the economy, politics, unwanted hair, recipes,...you name it and you can post it! This in-fighting is idiotic. And, like I said, it is very boring. And you can stop it! Each and everyone of you can refuse to go there.

Green, I do agree with you. I commented on the OP's original comment, which I did find very interesting. All the crap that came later is really just that....crap. Not sure of the reason for the personal attacks.

Midnightblue- it sounds as though you have interacted with these ladies at OH and somehow felt they did you an injustice. I respect your opinion and your right to voice it. I just wanted to tell you that some of us at LBT have had a different experience with the OP of this thread. She is liked by a lot of people here, but not all. I guess no one is loved by everyone. Maybe you could get to know her a little better here at LBT before judging her so harshly. The environment at OH can bring out the worst in people (at least in the old days when I used to read there). Also, before anyone asks, I am not a member of the P***y possee as Tommy O calls it. I just try to be fair. Until someone proves that they are two-faced or backstab others, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. =)

Whoops. I hate the edit function here! So I will just clarify that I still read at Obesity Help, just not very often. I used to read there quite a lot when I was researching the band but not as much since my surgery.

I stand by my original comments on the subject of this thread. As far as defending myself against "out of the blue" or (midnight blue) who has admitted to trolling .....who cares what her character judgments are? If she has to hide and name call from her hole in the ground...well there must be a reason.

If you disagree then disagree like an adult on the subject of the thread. Resorting to character assassination of people who hadnt even commented on the thread shows "midnight troll" has an agenda not even relating to the subject.

  • Author
From Wasa's post on OH

"Now she is in the hospital and they are suggesting she will erode in the future. She's shy of two weeks post op, irritation under the band, swelling, fever of 101.5, labs show no infection, and this is just a really weird case. I'm not sure what's going on. She had no stomach pain before falling, after falling x2 she has a great deal of stomach pain, no leaks, no perforations, none of that."

Looks to me like she never suggested this friend had eroded after 13 days.

Very true. I was asking if anyone knew the doc that was treating her because this whole thing was so weird. The guy is in my city and I've never heard of him.

It's MissMona, she'll probably be posting today since I believe she was discharged from the hospital yesterday.

Oops! I think I made a booboo in my last post. :rolleyes: I thought OP meant other poster. :faint: I gather from context it actually means opening poster. Sorry about that. I am old and I am blonde! :phanvan Life can be difficult at times, eh. :tired

I was wrong too. I thought it was original poster. :rolleyes:

I've always used is as referring to the Original poster.

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