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With all the bickering about Christmas and the reason for the season...

Stolen from Rob on OH, written by Mike Nichols, no link available:

Midwinter's Eve: YULE

Their Christian friends are often quite surprised at how enthusiastically Pagans Celebrate the ‘Christmas’ season. Even though they prefer to use the word “Yule”, and their celebrations may peak a few days before the twenty-fifth, they nonetheless follow many of the traditional customs of the season: decorated trees, caroling, presents, Yule logs, and mistletoe. They might even go so far as putting up a ‘Nativity set’, though for them the three central characters are likely to be interpreted as Mother Nature, Father Time, and the baby Sun God. None of this will come as a surprise to anyone who knows the true history of the holiday, of course.

In fact, if truth be known, the holiday of Christmas has always been more Pagan than Christian, with its associations of Nordic divination, Celtic fertility rites, and Roman Mithraism. That is why John Calvin and other leaders of the Reformation abhorred it, why the Puritans refused to acknowledge it, much less celebrate it (to them, no day of the year could be more holy than the Sabbath), and why it was even made illegal in Boston! The holiday was already too closely associated with the birth of older Pagan Gods and heroes. And many of them (like Oedipus, Theseus, Hercules, Perseus, Jason, Dionysus, Apollo, Mithra, Horus, and even Arthur) possessed a narrative of birth, death, and resurrection that was uncomfortably close to that of Jesus. And to make matters worse, many of them predated the Christian Savior.

Ultimately, of course, the holiday is rooted deeply in the cycle of the year. It is the winter solstice that is being celebrated, seedtime of the year, the longest night and shortest day. It is the birthday of the new Sun King, the Son of God—by whatever name you choose to call him. On this darkest of nights, the Goddess becomes the Great Mother and once again gives birth. And it makes perfect poetic sense that on the longest night of the winter, “the dark night of their souls”, there springs the new spark of hope, the Sacred Fire, the Light of the World, the Coel Coeth.

That is why Pagans have as much right to claim this holiday as Christians. Perhaps even more so, since the Christians were rather late in laying claim to it, and tried more than once to reject it. There had been a tradition in the West that Mary bore the child Jesus on the twenty-fifth day, but no one could seem to decide on the month. Finally, in 320 C.E., the Catholic fathers in Rome decided to make it December, in an effort to co-opt the Mithraic celebration of the Romans, the Yule festival of the Saxons, and the midwinter revels of the Celts.

There was never much pretense that the date they finally chose was historically accurate. Shepherds just don’t “tend their flocks by night” in the high pastures in the dead of winter! But if one wishes to use the New Testament as historical evidence, this reference may point to sometime in the spring as the time of Jesus’ birth. This is because the lambing season occurs in the spring and that is the only time when shepherds are likely to “watch their flocks by night”—to make sure the lambing goes well. Knowing this, the Eastern half of the church continued to reject December 25, preferring a “movable date” fixed by their astrologers according to the moon.

Thus, despite its shaky start (for over three centuries, no one knew when Jesus was supposed to have been born!), December 25 finally began to catch on. By 529, it was a civic holiday, and all work or public business (except that of cooks, bakers, or any that contributed to the delight of the holiday) was prohibited by the Emperor Justinian. In 563, the Council of Braga forbade fasting on Christmas Day, and four years later the Council of Tours proclaimed the twelve days from December 25 to Epiphany as a sacred, festive season. This last point is perhaps the hardest to impress upon the modern reader, who is lucky to get a single day off work. Christmas, in the Middle Ages, was not a single day, but rather a period of twelve days, from December 25 to January 6. The Twelve Days of Christmas, in fact. It is certainly lamentable that the modern world has abandoned this approach, along with the popular Twelfth Night celebrations.

Of course, the Christian version of the holiday spread to many countries no faster than Christianity itself, which means that “Christmas” wasn’t celebrated in Ireland until the late fifth century; in England, Switzerland, and Austria until the seventh; in Germany until the eighth; and in the Slavic lands until the ninth and tenth. Not that these countries lacked their own midwinter celebrations. Long before the world had heard of Jesus, Pagans had been observing the season by bringing in the Yule log, wishing on it, and lighting it from the remains of last year’s log. Riddles were posed and answered, magic and rituals were practiced, wild boars were sacrificed and consumed along with large quantities of liquor, corn dollies were carried from house to house while caroling, fertility rites were practiced (girls standing under a sprig of mistletoe were subject to a bit more than a kiss), and divinations were cast for the coming spring. Many of these Pagan customs, in an appropriately watered-down form, have entered the mainstream of Christian celebration, though most celebrants do not realize (or do not mention it, if they do) their origins.

For modern Witches, Yule (from the Anglo-Saxon yula, meaning “wheel” of the year) is usually celebrated on the actual winter solstice, which may vary by a few days, though it usually occurs on or around December 21. It is a Lesser Sabbat or Low Holiday in the modern Pagan calendar, one of the four quarter days of the year, but a very important one. Pagan customs are still enthusiastically followed. Once, the Yule log had been the center of the celebration. It was lighted on the eve of the solstice (it should light on the first try) and must be kept burning for twelve hours, for good luck. It should be made of ash. Later, the Yule log was replaced by the Yule tree but, instead of burning it, lighted candles were placed on it. In Christianity, Protestants might claim that Martin Luther invented the custom, and Catholics might grant St. Boniface the honor, but the custom can demonstrably be traced back through the Roman Saturnalia all the way to ancient Egypt. Needless to say, such a tree should be cut down rather than purchased, and should be disposed of by burning, the proper way to dispatch any sacred object.

Along with the evergreen, the holly and the ivy and the mistletoe were important plants of the season, all symbolizing fertility and everlasting life. Mistletoe was especially venerated by the Celtic Druids, who cut it with a golden sickle on the sixth night of the moon, and believed it to be an aphrodisiac. (Magically—not medicinally! It’s highly toxic!) But aphrodisiacs must have been the smallest part of the Yuletide menu in ancient times, as contemporary reports indicate that the tables fairly creaked under the strain of every type of good food. And drink! The most popular of which was the “wassail cup”, deriving its name from the Anglo-Saxon term waes hael (be whole or hale).

Medieval Christmas folklore seems endless: that animals will all kneel down as the Holy Night arrives, that bees hum the 100th psalm on Christmas Eve, that a windy Christmas will bring good luck, that a person born on Christmas Day can see the Little People, that a cricket on the hearth brings good luck, that if one opens all the doors of the house at midnight all the evil spirits will depart, that you will have one lucky month for each Christmas pudding you sample, that the tree must be taken down by Twelfth Night or bad luck is sure to follow, that “if Christmas on a Sunday be, a windy winter they shall see”, that “hours of sun on Christmas Day, so many frosts in the month of May”, that one can use the Twelve Days of Christmas to predict the weather for each of the twelve months of the coming year, and so on.

Remembering that most Christmas customs are ultimately based upon older Pagan customs, it only remains for modern Pagans to reclaim their lost traditions. In doing so, they can share many common customs with their Christian friends, albeit with a slightly different interpretation. And, thus, they all share in the beauty of this most magical of seasons, when the Mother Goddess once again gives birth to the baby Sun God and sets the wheel in motion again. To conclude with a long-overdue paraphrase, “Goddess bless them, every one!

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No, I think that you are right and I was wrong. I now think that it does mean original poster and not what I thought it meant - which was "other poster." I'm telling ya, I can be very ditsy at times.... :faint:

(and isn't this much more fun than picking on each other? :rolleyes:)

No, I think that you are right and I was wrong. I now think that it does mean original poster and not what I thought it meant - which was "other poster." I'm telling ya, I can be very ditsy at times.... :faint:

(and isn't this much more fun than picking on each other? ;))

Awe, it's okay......we still love ya!

If truth be known, I can be a little ditsy sometimes too. LOL

What did I ever do to you? I am friendly with people on LBT and OH. I don't really even post enough over here to be singled out by anyone. Since you called me out by name, please go on and call out my 'errors' so that I might properly address them.
Chelle--Regardless of what others think, I'm happy you were able to have some time to post again. It's nice to hear from you! I was hoping you've just been busy with a lot of holiday activities like the rest of us! I have no idea why anyone has an issue with you in the first place--you are quite friendly and pleasant to interact with on-line! That personal attack was not provoked and seemed to come from out of nowhere...
Ladies, this discussion has become utterly nuts, and not in a good way! Let me recap: this thread was opened by an interesting and, as I understand it from my own reading on the issue, accurate commentary on the pagan roots of the Christmas festival. When one of the OPs chose to post what I felt was an off-the-wall description of pagan practices I wrote a response to this. (By the way, thanks for all the nice words y'all said, eh.) Since then this discussion has degenerated into a counter productive and, worse yet, very boring she said she said brawl.

This has been happening a lot on this site recently. There seems to be some kind of pissing match between a number of individuals going on and from what I am able to understand some of this has been imported from OH.

Stop it! Cut it out! It is boring for the rest of us and it is futile. You know that nobody is gonna win here in cyberland. Get a forken grip, will ya!

Green—Thanks so much for the timely words of wisdom as usual. I agree that everyone needs to get back to the original topic. I am not familiar with these people who keep hijacking our threads and turn them into some bizarre, hostile environment instead of a sane and rational discussion about a particular issue. I’m getting really sick and tired of these antics…and I'm also starting to notice a pattern in the way the antagonistic posters write (why does it seem so familiar to me--could it be the dastardly work of the same individual)???

:focus:

Pagans were the people (simplistically) that practiced sex orgies and threw their kids into the fire to sacrifice to false gods.
I'm the first to admit that I'm not very well-versed about a plethora of different religions nor do I know much about people who do not believe in organized religion. However, this comment got me to thinking that maybe I've gone wrong somewhere in my poor uneventful life! (Sex orgies? Where does one register to become a pagan anyway? Sign me up!) :faint:

In any case, I digress. I tried to do a little research about paganism and this website literally made my brain hurt: Meanings of the terms Pagan and Paganism

I think I'm way too tired to think about all of this deep stuff right now! :notagree What does it all mean? :help:

Read a nice little tidbit this morning where the two factions who control the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem got into a fist-fight yesterday, because somebody from the Greek Orthodox faction accidently stepped into the Armenian section. Nice. There's nothing that says we love Jesus like fighting inside the church built in his name, at his birthplace. No wonder I have no use for organized religion.

I can't tell you how much I agree with that sentiment:clap2::clap2::clap2:

There are Christians who dont Celebrate Christmas because of its origins. Its common knowledge Christ did not institute the practice nor did his apostles or members of the first century congregation.

Pagans were the people (simplistically) that practiced sex orgies and threw their kids into the fire to sacrifice to false gods.

Constantine in the 4th century wanted to unite his kindgom thus a melding of Christian and pagan beliefs.

Some Christians feel that anything that was unclean at one time...i.e. pagan practices will not be made clean by calling it Christian.

December 25, was the date chosen for pagan reasons. Any encyclopedia will read that Christ couldnt possibly have been born that day.

Santa Claus, the tree, yule logs, lights, presents given to each other, etc. all have pagan origins.

Are you for real?? They let you teach that pile of doo doo to kids???

Oh let me guess - did the pagans kill each other by tying people to a stake and piling a load of firewood round it then setting it alight? Oooh I know they made all these weird gizmos and called then names like 'the Iron maiden' 'the rack' 'the thumscrew' and then tried it out on each other just for funzies, does it ring any bells?

Just for the record my daughter is a pagan/wiccan, and it is one of the few faiths that actually preaches tolerance for all other faiths, they kind of figure that as long as you live your life the right way then it doesnt matter what you chose to call yourself.

A large proportion of the people burned for 'witchcraft' during they heydays of the Christian movement were in fact the healers in the villages, midwives in particular were burned with alarming regularity on the grounds that they gave pain relief to women in labour and apparently God felt that women should suffer to bring forth children, so off to the bonfire it was.

If ,and it is a very big if, the pagans ever did practice human sacrifice ( and I am totally with Green on that one) they didnt do it on a wholescale slash and burn your way across the entire continent kind of way.

Are you for real?? They let you teach that pile of doo doo to kids???

Oh let me guess - did the pagans kill each other by tying people to a stake and piling a load of firewood round it then setting it alight? Oooh I know they made all these weird gizmos and called then names like 'the Iron maiden' 'the rack' 'the thumscrew' and then tried it out on each other just for funzies, does it ring any bells?

Just for the record my daughter is a pagan/wiccan, and it is one of the few faiths that actually preaches tolerance for all other faiths, they kind of figure that as long as you live your life the right way then it doesnt matter what you chose to call yourself.

A large proportion of the people burned for 'witchcraft' during they heydays of the Christian movement were in fact the healers in the villages, midwives in particular were burned with alarming regularity on the grounds that they gave pain relief to women in labour and apparently God felt that women should suffer to bring forth children, so off to the bonfire it was.

If ,and it is a very big if, the pagans ever did practice human sacrifice ( and I am totally with Green on that one) they didnt do it on a wholescale slash and burn your way across the entire continent kind of way.

Yes I am "for real". I cant believe people disagree with stuff they admit to doing no research on.

Your daughter's wiccan/pagan beliefs are not my concern. I am talking about in century's past. This is high school history..not even college where they definitely support my view and elaborate on it quite a bit. Most of the nations that surrounded the Israelites in biblical times were PAGAN. There customs varied, but some of those customs were child sacrifice and sex orgies.

I dont know what people who live now and choose to call themselves Pagan's practice. Nor do I care. This thread was on the origin of Christmas..so thats the time frame I was discussing.

Yes I am "for real". I cant believe people disagree with stuff they admit to doing no research on.

Your daughter's wiccan/pagan beliefs are not my concern. I am talking about in century's past. This is high school history..not even college where they definitely support my view and elaborate on it quite a bit. Most of the nations that surrounded the Israelites in biblical times were PAGAN. There customs varied, but some of those customs were child sacrifice and sex orgies.

I dont know what people who live now and choose to call themselves Pagan's practice. Nor do I care. This thread was on the origin of Christmas..so thats the time frame I was discussing.

Exactly! The originally quoted post was about not being surprised that Pagans adopted Christmas, because it is steeped in Pagan origin.

Isn't it interesting that the first Christmas wasn't celebrated until several CENTURIES after Jesus died, and there is no indication that he ever celebrated his birthday. In fact, the only birthdays mentioned in the Bible didn't end too well (John's head on a platter) and were in no way associated with Christianity. Jesus did tell his followers to remember him by Observing the Memorial of his death, which hasn't caught on nearly as well as Christmas. Must be the present thing!!

Where did I admit to doing no research?

The Roman Catholic church were the ones that changed all the dates and it may have escaped your notice but they werent around in the time of the Israelites, so I dont really see what relevance there is in mentioning ancient middle eastern Pagans.

If you are talking about the Aztecs/Inca type of religion then yup they sure did have a pechant for the old ritual sacrifce, but then in the old testament didnt god ask Abraham to sacrifce his firstborn? Before you start I know that he didnt make him do it........

On the subject of the Aztecs and Incas ( as they are the 2 main religions that practised child sacrifice), how would the Roman Catholic Church have had a clue what they were doing, much less tried to tie their religious calender to them?

As for the Pagans that were around at the time of the Roman catholic church being set up - which incidently coincided with when they chopped about 100 of the gospels that didnt tell the story quite how they wanted it ( think the gospel of Mary, the gospel of Judas etc etc) out of the good book too - they were primarily concerned with placating the western european pagans, which were to a large degree based on a Druid type of practise,and there has NEVER been any evidence or indication that they carried out the slaughter of children.

With respect to my research on pagan religions, and by pagan I assume that your operating definition of paganism encompasses all of those religions which a) fall outside the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition and :smile: are likely to be polytheistic; well then, this certainly does take in a helluva lot of religions past and present. Therefore when you are speaking about pagan practices you are speaking about the religious practices of indigenous peoples, the practices of such ancient cultures as those of the Aztecs, Mayans, and the Incans, and you are also referring to the Hindus, are you not?. You should then also be required to include the polytheistic belief systems of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. And while we are discussing this business of pagan practices we should also mention the Manicheans and the Parsis. Now, I trust that you and I are on the same relatively well-read page, eh? This is where I find that I must advise you that while human sacrifice may have played a role in some primitive non-Judeo-Christian-Islamic practices these folks were certainly not, as I have said before, most certainly not in the habit of chucking an entire class of pre-schoolers into the fire. The Mayans did seem to have some fairly distressing practices but these slaughters involved adult men who failed at the local sport.

I am awful curious to know where you have been receiving your information on the practices of pagan peoples. Your lack of precision has been spectacular. It sounds like you have been enrolled in the school of fundamentalism. Please advise me if your street cred is anything more academically solid than that.

"Mayans did seem to have some fairly distressing practices but these slaughters involved adult men who failed at the local sport."

Perhaps Columbians have some Mayan roots then...they killed a player for making an "own goal" in soccer against the USA.

With respect to my research on pagan religions, and by pagan I assume that your operating definition of paganism encompasses all of those religions which a) fall outside the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition and :myscared: are likely to be polytheistic; well then, this certainly does take in a helluva lot of religions past and present. Therefore when you are speaking about pagan practices you are speaking about the religious practices of indigenous peoples, the practices of such ancient cultures as those of the Aztecs, Mayans, and the Incans, and you are also referring to the Hindus, are you not?. You should then also be required to include the polytheistic belief systems of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans. And while we are discussing this business of pagan practices we should also mention the Manicheans and the Parsis. Now, I trust that you and I are on the same relatively well-read page, eh? This is where I find that I must advise you that while human sacrifice may have played a role in some primitive non-Judeo-Christian-Islamic practices these folks were certainly not, as I have said before, most certainly not in the habit of chucking an entire class of pre-schoolers into the fire. The Mayans did seem to have some fairly distressing practices but these slaughters involved adult men who failed at the local sport.

I am awful curious to know where you have been receiving your information on the practices of pagan peoples. Your lack of precision has been spectacular. It sounds like you have been enrolled in the school of fundamentalism. Please advise me if your street cred is anything more academically solid than that.

Yup thats exactly what I meant! PMSL! It reads so much better when you say it Green :smile:

This is where I find that I must advise you that while human sacrifice may have played a role in some primitive non-Judeo-Christian-Islamic practices these folks were certainly not, as I have said before, most certainly not in the habit of chucking an entire class of pre-schoolers into the fire.
Can we sign up people we don't like as volunteers for this human sacrifice ritual? Is there a waiting list? Just checking...

By the way, y'all are making my head hurt with all of this oh-so-deep conversation! LOL!

Kagoscuba--it's a darn good thing I don't play soccer in Columbia! I'm so clumsy that I'd be offed within minutes!

Can we sign up people we don't like as volunteers for this human sacrifice ritual? Is there a waiting list? Just checking...

By the way, y'all are making my head hurt with all of this oh-so-deep conversation! LOL!

Kagoscuba--it's a darn good thing I don't play soccer in Columbia! I'm so clumsy that I'd be offed within minutes!

Bwahahaha! :eek: I am sure that we have all got our own lists of folks we want to see sacrificed. I wonder how many of them are family, in-laws, and co-workers, eh? :cool: I would like to offer up my loony next door neighbour.

And yep, the Mayans did apparently had some kind of weird sport where the loser did end up being sacrificed. It did involve a ball. Maybe it was some kind of proto-Soccer? I saw a couple of the playing fields when I was on a trip in Mexico. The losers were healthy young males by the way. In other cultures the chosen sacrificial lamb was a beautiful young virgin.

Chosing to burn a bunch of babies in one fell swoop would be an act of tribal suicide. It simply does not make sense on any level, neither on the psychological plane nor in terms of tribal survival.

In other cultures the chosen sacrificial lamb was a beautiful young virgin.
Phew! I'm off the hook in that case! :lol:

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