Okay, I just have to do it.

Atheists do not "refuse" to believe in a God anymore than a theist (Christian) refuses to believe in purple flying elephants. We simply lack belief in this God.

Belief is not something one turns on and off like a lamp. One either believes or they do not. When people insist that we really do believe they are saying they know better than us what our own individual thoughts and feelings are and that doesn't make one of us look very smart.

I can no more spontaneously "believe" in your God than you can spontaneously claim a lack of belief. Seriously, if beliefs can be turned on like lamps then they can be turned off just as easily. What would it take for you to honestly, sincerely, believe your God does not exist? Yeah, that's what you are suggesting we do by simply believing.

It is not a "fact" that your God exists. It is faith. If you had facts you wouldn't need faith. Unless you can bring your God to my home for dinner tonight for a nice chilled protein shake, it is your belief he exists. If you want to insist that it is a fact that your God exists, please feel free to trot out your proof and explain why you no longer have faith but facts instead. "I FEEL him in my heart," is not proof - it is an emotion.

Christians and other assorted theists have every bloody right in the world to believe anything they wish. If you want to believe in a God or many Gods that is your right and I would defend your right to believe until my very last breath. Would you defend my right to lack belief in the same way?

We don't need to hear the Word. I know more atheists that have read the bible cover to cover than Christians. Matter of fact, I can count the number of Christians I know that have read their own good book (cover to cover) on one hand.

I know the bible well, I likely know it better than most Christians. I didn't *just* go to church on a very regular basis I read the bible and studied the material. Quite frankly, that is what led to my atheism.

Christianity is not new material, it just isn't. If you research Christianity you will see it was borrowed from myths prior to Christianity. The Hindus, for example. Egyptians. Then we have holidays, Paganism anyone?

Just because I am not a Christian and I will defend my right to lack Christian beliefs, that does not mean I am anti-Christian. That is a cop out and nothing more. We know it, so do you.

Christians are not being persecuted in the US. The only difference between today and 100 years ago is that now Christians are being forced by law to follow the same rules as the rest of us have had to do since the beginning of the Bill of Rights. That is not persecution and if you insist it is then you have to say that the rest of the country has been persecuted since the beginning of the Bill of Rights.

The founding fathers were not all Christian. They were an assorted bunch, everything from pantheist, Pagan, Christian, atheist, and deist. And while I am bringing up the beliefs of others Hitler was not a Catholic or any other type of Christian. But I admit, that is a topic for another day.

Yes, Christianity is the majority religion in the US today. However, that is changing. Christianity numbers are dropping by just shy of 1% annually. This has been tracked since at least the '80s. The two fastest growing groups are Pagans and atheists. It's true, deal with it.

Considering the fact that Christianity is going down in numbers it has been estimated that by somewhere around 2040 or so, Christianity will no longer be the majority religion in the US. Assuming this is true, are you really sure you want your religion in public schools? If you set the tone today for religion/public schools, do realize that in the near future you may just get your wish. However, your future generations may not be worshiping the Christian God but perhaps Ra, the Sun God while dancing naked around a maypole under a full moon at midnight. Is this what you want? This is what many Christians today are pushing for.

We are not out to convert the world. We don't care what your religion is, we just don't want to participate it in and we don't want to follow the same rules. We happen to disagree with a great many of the beliefs Christians want to (and have) put into law. If we promise not to try and convert you, would you grant us the same favors?

We do not worship a devil. If we lack a belief in the supernatural such as the Christian God, it is quite safe to assume we lack belief in a supernatural devil or demon as well.

We do not eat babies. Amazing, I know but we really don't. Some of us actually have our own children and we don't eat them either.

I fully realize this list is not directed to all Christians. You know who you are. Most Christians are honest, decent, kind individuals following their path in this life. They are doing the best they can. Guess what? So are we.

About 10-20 years ago we nonbelievers made up about 14% of the US population. Since we are one of the fastest growing groups today you can rest assured that number is significantly greater now. We are here to stay, we aren't going anywhere. We aren't growing in numbers by recruiting, it doesn't work that way. People are being educated in sciences more today than any other time and people are making these choices on their own.

Wouldn't it make more sense to work together as a community and not worry about what everyone else believes? We are all in this world together, it only makes sense to be peaceful, respectful, and considerate of others. Keep in mind, it is likely a bunch of atheists and Pagans taking care of you when you are in the hospital. I've been in medicine for over 20 years now and I'm here to tell you, you can't spit in a hospital and fail to hit a nonbeliever somewhere. We are professionals, we are part of your community. Instead of focusing on differences let's find ways to make life more harmonious.

Whew... okay. I'm done.

If only all religious people had the approach you have. There would have been about 20,000 fewer wasted posts on this board over the last few months.

I don't consider the posts on the threads about religion to be wasted. Many people learned a lot about religion and many learned a lot about human nature and some learned to "sit back and watch".

:popcorn: Popcorn, anybody? I'm just gonna sit back and watch

I'll take some!

I don't consider the posts on the threads about religion to be wasted. Many people learned a lot about religion and many learned a lot about human nature and some learned to "sit back and watch".

I agree with you completely that posts about religion in general are not "wasted." But I do think that arguing with someone who believes that their own personal opinion is supported by the "WORD OF GOD" is a waste of time. Regardless of who is right or wrong, there is no interchange of ideas. Minds are totally closed. No matter what concepts are offered, they will always be shut down and rejected without the slightest degree of consideration if they conflict in the smallest way with that person's conception of what constitutes the "WORD OF GOD." There is no exchange there. And thus, such posts, in my opinion, are a waste. They are like arguing with a mannequin.

I agree with you completely that posts about religion in general are not "wasted." But I do think that arguing with someone who believes that their own personal opinion is supported by the "WORD OF GOD" is a waste of time. Regardless of who is right or wrong, there is no interchange of ideas. Minds are totally closed. No matter what concepts are offered, they will always be shut down and rejected without the slightest degree of consideration if they conflict in the smallest way with that person's conception of what constitutes the "WORD OF GOD." There is no exchange there. And thus, such posts, in my opinion, are a waste. They are like arguing with a mannequin.

You make good points, but there is one more side to this story, and that is that hate, when cleverly disguised as the word of scripture, can be spread to unsuspecting people. I feel that the large group of members of many different backgrounds and various religious leanings, especially the devout Christians, stopped the spread of evil ideas, by never letting anything go unchallenged.

While there may not have been much of an interchange of ideas between the competing forces (which is usually bad), there was also no interchange of ideas between the "person in question" and onlookers who might otherwise have been influenced (and that was good).

Would Elmer Gantry have been held up to the light of day, the disinfectant of sunshine if it had not been for Sinclair Lewis?

I have attended Roman Catholic Churches all over the U.S. I have been a member of the Southern Baptist Church, was raised in the Methodist Church and was also a member of the First Christian Church. All of them had doctrines that were of course religious, but also because of the churches relationships with humankind and society in general, their doctrines all carry some political weight on certain topics. It comes with the territory.

Those of you who say that the Catholic Church or your church whatever it is, does not tell you how to vote, are probably correct in that they do not use that verbage..."vote for this candidate" or "vote against this law". (Although some do specifically that.)

However by deliverance of sermons or homilies on their doctrine, which by their very nature have some social and political leanings, they are telling their congregations how to vote.

With the Catholic Church, many times political questions are addressed by the Pope and his position and the Church's position is made not only known to the Bishops, but often it is released to the general media. If they feel very strongly about something, they can and have organized political action groups to demonstrate. As in the issue of legalizing abortion.

For those of you who protesting and saying that your church doesn't tell you how to vote, then I say you're not listening. You probably agree with whatever your minister or priest is saying to you and they usually intertwine the church's doctrine and political position with various passages in the Bible, so it can be very subtle. But there is much guilt associated with a church members deviation from what comes down from the pulpit.

It's all right if you want to be influenced by your church that way. And some people really need the direction. But some people would rather think for themselves. There are also, I realize, some people here who believe that if one questions their church or minister or the Bible, they will go to hell. That's a pretty big incentive to go away from Sunday's service with a very definite idea of how and for whom they should vote.

P.S. Once again for those of you who are upset by these kinds of discussions, please know that some of us can debate these issues and still have respect for all of the other participants and can go elsewhere on LBT and be supportive and helpful to everyone else.

This particular area at LBT is the "Rants and Raves" section and when you come here, you can expect to read some ranting and raving.

This particular area at LBT is the "Rants and Raves" section and when you come here, you can expect to read some ranting and raving.

Amen, sister!!

Bubblebutt, it is obvious that you are against any organized religion. Fair enough, many are. BUT, many are not. You commented that you want to carry out your discussions as an adult and it seems that you have accomplished just that. Congratulations! You see, most adults are more concerned with making sure everyone hears what they think that the forget to respect other people. If that is what carrying a discussion like an adult means, I would rather relate as a child. Children are kind and loving to eachother, with the exception of the occassional bully, who usually grows up to a ranting and bullying adult. You say that you respect the beliefs of others but your words speak against that. I have read some of the post of that Ron guy and I would have to agree with Carlene that there are many ways about you that are the same. Too bad.

Amen, sister!!

And another Amen!

These threads are in the R&R section, and are clearly titled. People have the right to just skip right over them.

QT: Your post came off in the begining as complimentary to Bubble and then you jerk it back and smack her on the head with a comparison of her to Ron. Am I misunderstanding? Did you just say that you preferred that people be kind and loving to each other? I'm sure you must not have meant it as a slam.

Isn't it interesting how discussions related to religion and politics bring out the extreme "passion" in many people? Discussions and debates presuppose that the opinions and beliefs of all involved are respected and that not one entity or group is singled out. Unfortunately, "passionate" discussions/debates often deteriorate into something ugly. When that happens, the learning and sharing cease and all anyone remembers is the negatives.

Rant and rave is not synonomous with slam and dunk. If people remember that, discussions such as the one on this thread can be productive when respect for differing opinions is observed, we might all learn something. Also, it's important to note a person can belong to a group and not believe 100% in that group's position 100% of the time. I am catholic and the church advises against oral contraceptives. I used them for years until suffering PEs but I don't thick that makes me a bad catholic.

So, sometimes it's best to take a deep breath, count to ten, ponder a point, etc., before engaging in slam and dunk behavior. This is no accusatory; just informational and a personal opinion.

Elizabeth: I love the "slam and dunk" phrase! How true! :heh:

QT: Your post came off in the begining as complimentary to Bubble and then you jerk it back and smack her on the head with a comparison of her to Ron. Am I misunderstanding? Did you just say that you preferred that people be kind and loving to each other? I'm sure you must not have meant it as a slam.

It wasn't meant as a slam or a compliment. Just an observation. I apologize if the comment seemed harsh. Admittedly, I have not read enough of the posts from Bubblebutt or Ron to make a fair assessment, however, the intolerance I have percieved in posts by both parties makes me question the intent.

I don't know either of them, I am sure that each are decent people. I am equally sure that there are people on this forum that would disagree with that statement about one or both. I am as sure of that as I am that many people would read my post and would find what they percieve to be intolerance.

I just make that point to say that these words are flat. No one see the others and their expressions, or truly knows the others intent. That is why these types of threads are so offensive to many. Especially when the topic is something like religion and beliefs that people feel so strongly about.

I already know that every word written here comes into question and debate by others and what I have said or will say will cause me to be the recipient of a "slam". However, I must say that I although this may be a rant and rave section, I don't understand why a person would want to risk hurting another person. Known or unknown. This is a support forum, afterall.

I understand that I have the right to review and engage or review and ignore, just as anyone else. I chose to share my view. It probably goes without saying that I am a devout believer in Christ. I do not consider myself "Ultra Religious". I am not really sure what that even means. I will not deny Christ or the changes that he has made in my life or the changes that I know he can make in anyones life. Some don't agree with that. I wish that I could change their mind but I would never beat someone over the head or cram it down their throat (remember, if you are reading this it is by choice, so I can say that here without being accused of forcing my views on you. Right?)

I do not think that non-christians or non-believers are evil, eat babies or any other such nonsense. And guess what, I have never known a christian with that notion. I also know that people are not always what they seem, Christian and non-christian alike. This is what makes snap judgements dangerous.

I would love to share my experience with anyone that is interested but I believe we (christians) are to be Christ-like in our witness. I strive to make my life my testimony and my actions my voice.

With that, I wish you all peace and a good night.

Isn't it wonderful that we can speak our minds without fear?

My dream is to vacation at xmas time instead of holiday with my never- gonna-change Baptist hubby and his family. I always feel like a fake. With his family its all about presents NOTHING "religious" so I never have to come out of the closet. My family/friends know "me".

Please , I am not trying to get anyones panties in a wad . I am sure I have the only inlaws like this. Tee hee.

edie

atheist since age 14 now 48

However, I must say that I although this may be a rant and rave section, I don't understand why a person would want to risk hurting another person. Known or unknown. This is a support forum, afterall.

I don't think you were slam dunking anyone but I do feel that some people were addressed rather unfairly. When new people join a board and don't "know" existing members, it's best to give them the benefit of the doubt. For example, Carlene has to be one of the fairest and most supportive people on this board. She tried to offer a PERSONAL opinion and was met with less than polite responses. Like the lady she is, she opted to leave the thread rather than become involved in a cat fight.

Religious and political threads ignite passionate responses. There's a fine line between rant and rave and slam and dunk. My point was only to remind people of that fact... all people; myself included.