Okay, I just have to do it.

Atheists do not "refuse" to believe in a God anymore than a theist (Christian) refuses to believe in purple flying elephants. We simply lack belief in this God.

Belief is not something one turns on and off like a lamp. One either believes or they do not. When people insist that we really do believe they are saying they know better than us what our own individual thoughts and feelings are and that doesn't make one of us look very smart.

I can no more spontaneously "believe" in your God than you can spontaneously claim a lack of belief. Seriously, if beliefs can be turned on like lamps then they can be turned off just as easily. What would it take for you to honestly, sincerely, believe your God does not exist? Yeah, that's what you are suggesting we do by simply believing.

It is not a "fact" that your God exists. It is faith. If you had facts you wouldn't need faith. Unless you can bring your God to my home for dinner tonight for a nice chilled protein shake, it is your belief he exists. If you want to insist that it is a fact that your God exists, please feel free to trot out your proof and explain why you no longer have faith but facts instead. "I FEEL him in my heart," is not proof - it is an emotion.

Christians and other assorted theists have every bloody right in the world to believe anything they wish. If you want to believe in a God or many Gods that is your right and I would defend your right to believe until my very last breath. Would you defend my right to lack belief in the same way?

We don't need to hear the Word. I know more atheists that have read the bible cover to cover than Christians. Matter of fact, I can count the number of Christians I know that have read their own good book (cover to cover) on one hand.

I know the bible well, I likely know it better than most Christians. I didn't *just* go to church on a very regular basis I read the bible and studied the material. Quite frankly, that is what led to my atheism.

Christianity is not new material, it just isn't. If you research Christianity you will see it was borrowed from myths prior to Christianity. The Hindus, for example. Egyptians. Then we have holidays, Paganism anyone?

Just because I am not a Christian and I will defend my right to lack Christian beliefs, that does not mean I am anti-Christian. That is a cop out and nothing more. We know it, so do you.

Christians are not being persecuted in the US. The only difference between today and 100 years ago is that now Christians are being forced by law to follow the same rules as the rest of us have had to do since the beginning of the Bill of Rights. That is not persecution and if you insist it is then you have to say that the rest of the country has been persecuted since the beginning of the Bill of Rights.

The founding fathers were not all Christian. They were an assorted bunch, everything from pantheist, Pagan, Christian, atheist, and deist. And while I am bringing up the beliefs of others Hitler was not a Catholic or any other type of Christian. But I admit, that is a topic for another day.

Yes, Christianity is the majority religion in the US today. However, that is changing. Christianity numbers are dropping by just shy of 1% annually. This has been tracked since at least the '80s. The two fastest growing groups are Pagans and atheists. It's true, deal with it.

Considering the fact that Christianity is going down in numbers it has been estimated that by somewhere around 2040 or so, Christianity will no longer be the majority religion in the US. Assuming this is true, are you really sure you want your religion in public schools? If you set the tone today for religion/public schools, do realize that in the near future you may just get your wish. However, your future generations may not be worshiping the Christian God but perhaps Ra, the Sun God while dancing naked around a maypole under a full moon at midnight. Is this what you want? This is what many Christians today are pushing for.

We are not out to convert the world. We don't care what your religion is, we just don't want to participate it in and we don't want to follow the same rules. We happen to disagree with a great many of the beliefs Christians want to (and have) put into law. If we promise not to try and convert you, would you grant us the same favors?

We do not worship a devil. If we lack a belief in the supernatural such as the Christian God, it is quite safe to assume we lack belief in a supernatural devil or demon as well.

We do not eat babies. Amazing, I know but we really don't. Some of us actually have our own children and we don't eat them either.

I fully realize this list is not directed to all Christians. You know who you are. Most Christians are honest, decent, kind individuals following their path in this life. They are doing the best they can. Guess what? So are we.

About 10-20 years ago we nonbelievers made up about 14% of the US population. Since we are one of the fastest growing groups today you can rest assured that number is significantly greater now. We are here to stay, we aren't going anywhere. We aren't growing in numbers by recruiting, it doesn't work that way. People are being educated in sciences more today than any other time and people are making these choices on their own.

Wouldn't it make more sense to work together as a community and not worry about what everyone else believes? We are all in this world together, it only makes sense to be peaceful, respectful, and considerate of others. Keep in mind, it is likely a bunch of atheists and Pagans taking care of you when you are in the hospital. I've been in medicine for over 20 years now and I'm here to tell you, you can't spit in a hospital and fail to hit a nonbeliever somewhere. We are professionals, we are part of your community. Instead of focusing on differences let's find ways to make life more harmonious.

Whew... okay. I'm done.

Since when is presenting the facts bashing beliefs? That pity pot of yours isn't working. I have made it clear in this thread and others that I don't care what others believe. When it comes to Catholicism it isn't the Catholics that I have a problem with, it is the CHURCH. I support the Catholics many times when they make up their own minds vs. depending on the church to inform them of their opinions. The church and a person's beliefs are two very different things and you know it.

If you can't dispute the facts, fine. But to create straw man arguments isn't wise.

I hope this is good enough for you. I am not going to pay the $5 to purchase the whole article.

Nowhere do any of these "references" implicate the Pope in trying to "run" the country. Yes, individual bishops have spoken for/against political agendas regarding abortion and stem cell research, but that does NOT mean that they have been "ordered" by the Pope to do so, nor does it mean that they, in turn, have pressured parish priests across America to tell their parrishoners who to vote for. Unless you have been in a Catholic church and heard that with your own ears, then you don't know any such thing to be "true". I, on the other hand, have been in numerous Catholic churches and have NEVER heard a priest campaign for any individual or political party.

Since when is presenting the facts bashing beliefs?

Gee....you should meet Mr. Ron Cusano. You have a lot in common.

Nowhere do any of these "references" implicate the Pope in trying to "run" the country. Yes, individual bishops have spoken for/against political agendas regarding abortion and stem cell research, but that does NOT mean that they have been "ordered" by the Pope to do so, nor does it mean that they, in turn, have pressured parish priests across America to tell their parrishoners who to vote for. Unless you have been in a Catholic church and heard that with your own ears, then you don't know any such thing to be "true". I, on the other hand, have been in numerous Catholic churches and have NEVER heard a priest campaign for any individual or political party.

You are clearly not familiar with how the Catholic church operates. These are not hidden facts, these are long term, on going methods the church has used for a long time.

Since when does the pope contact each Catholic and offer his views? HE DOESN'T! He informs those below him who inform those below them. Then it comes out in sermons. This is something just bloody obvious, it's not a secret. It's how any large organization works and the Vatican is no different and they don't claim to be different.

Yes, I am quite familiar with the church. I was born and raised Catholic.

I have provided links to explain exactly how this happens. If you want to continue stomping your feeties we are just going to go in circles here. If you want to discuss the issues instead of opinions, let me know. I have provided examples of my claims, I have done my job.

I think that all organized religions are a bit too power hungry, sometimes at the expense of the religion itself.

I do not think the Roman Catholic church at this time in history is any worse than other groups.

I think that all organized religions should allow their members the free will God bestowed upon us.

Gee....you should meet Mr. Ron Cusano. You have a lot in common.

Is this your best shot? Honestly?

Let's look at the differences here. Ron attacks individuals because they don't believe in a god the right way. I support anyone to believe in their god of choice in whatever manner works for them.

Ron claims everyone is going to hell unless they believe his way and he does nothing to back up his claims. I, OTOH, don't believe in a hell and I support my claims with examples.

I have not slammed a group of believes for being believers, I have slammed a church for their politics. It is you that cannot see the difference between how a church is run and the individuals who have their beliefs. And you can't see a difference here? Really? Have I given you too much credit?

If you want to communicate on an adult level I'd love to discuss the issues with you. However, if you are going to continue slamming and stomping your feeties, I'm going to learn about that ignore feature.

Nowhere do any of these "references" implicate the Pope in trying to "run" the country. Yes, individual bishops have spoken for/against political agendas regarding abortion and stem cell research, but that does NOT mean that they have been "ordered" by the Pope to do so, nor does it mean that they, in turn, have pressured parish priests across America to tell their parrishoners who to vote for. Unless you have been in a Catholic church and heard that with your own ears, then you don't know any such thing to be "true". I, on the other hand, have been in numerous Catholic churches and have NEVER heard a priest campaign for any individual or political party.

The article I posted was in response to your request for a reference to my post:

Some Catholics were being threatened with excommunication for voting for candidates that supported abortion in the 2004 election. While it did not come from the Vatican, some US Bishops around the country did put the word out to their dioceses.

I never said anything about the Pope trying to run the USA, and in fact said. "it did not come from the Vatican".

T.O.M.

I agree, it isn't just the Catholic church today. But historically it was the Catholic church as previously, they had the most power.

If churches would stick to providing a warm and friendly place for people to meet and worship their God of choice I would have all the respect in the world for them. But it seems that the bigger they are, the more politics and the more politics the less worshiping and more power plays.

If you want to communicate on an adult level I'd love to discuss the issues with you. However, if you are going to continue slamming and stomping your feeties, I'm going to learn about that ignore feature.

I will save you the trouble. This is, after all, your thread. So I will leave it to you.

T.O.M.

I agree, it isn't just the Catholic church today. But historically it was the Catholic church as previously, they had the most power.

If churches would stick to providing a warm and friendly place for people to meet and worship their God of choice I would have all the respect in the world for them. But it seems that the bigger they are, the more politics and the more politics the less worshiping and more power plays.

It is not only religious organizations that forget their calling.

As an aircraft mechanic, I was a member of the IAMAW union. The IAMAW is headquartered in Washington DC, where it has a large complex of offices and many clerical workers. The clerical workers were not unionized and eventually signed cards, and voted to form a union local. The IAMAW refused to bargain with the clerical workers for an initial contract. A photograph of the clerical workers was published in the national newspapers showing the clerical workers picketing IAMAW headquarters with picket signs reading "IAMAW Unfair to Union Employees".

I've been a Catholic my entire life (I'm 56) and while I have heard sermons on our obligation to be active citizens and vote, I have never heard one in which the priest told the people how they should vote. The priests have urged people to pray and read to make informed decisions, but the churches I have belonged to have never said who or what to vote for or against. It may happen in some parishes, but I think it's an error to believe it is widespread.

I've been a Catholic my entire life (I'm 56) and while I have heard sermons on our obligation to be active citizens and vote, I have never heard one in which the priest told the people how they should vote. The priests have urged people to pray and read to make informed decisions, but the churches I have belonged to have never said who or what to vote for or against. It may happen in some parishes, but I think it's an error to believe it is widespread.

Churches have become too active in politics IMHO, but the Catholic church has not been the ardent backer of the present administration as many other denominations have. I hope you don't mind that I consider the Catholic church to be one of the Christian denominations. I know some people consider the main religious groups as Christian, Catholic, Jewish and Muslim, but I think of it as Christian (including Catholic), Jewish and Muslim.

Anyway, The Catholic church has been one of the few to oppose the Iraq war and also has opposed some of the hideous weapons systems the USA has produced over the years.

I am not happy with many of the group's oppinions on most of the social issues, but that is what makes free will so interesting.

I just couldn't resist responding to this thread.

Why can't we just leave people and their beliefs alone.

I personally just ignore fanatics believers or not. It is annoying from both sides.

I come here for support for the band not to try to convert people to my beliefs.

Why can't we just relate to each others as fellow human beings who got banded?

In the words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?"

I personally accept and don't judge anyone. I don't lump all unbelievers into a category and assume they are all the same. As I expect not to be categorized either. I am an individual.

I am a Christian who loves all people. I have people in my family that I love that are gay, atheist, into witchcraft, etc. I can love them even if I don't neccesarily believe like they do.

:faint:

Not all Christians are fanatics trying to push their beliefs down peoples throats.

:popcorn: Popcorn, anybody? I'm just gonna sit back and watch

I just couldn't resist responding to this thread.

Why can't we just leave people and their beliefs alone.

I personally just ignore fanatics believers or not. It is annoying from both sides.

I come here for support for the band not to try to convert people to my beliefs.

Why can't we just relate to each others as fellow human beings who got banded?

In the words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?"

I personally accept and don't judge anyone. I don't lump all unbelievers into a category and assume they are all the same. As I expect not to be categorized either. I am an individual.

I am a Christian who loves all people. I have people in my family that I love that are gay, atheist, into witchcraft, etc. I can love them even if I don't neccesarily believe like they do.

:faint:

Not all Christians are fanatics trying to push their beliefs down peoples throats.

If only all religious people had the approach you have. There would have been about 20,000 fewer wasted posts on this board over the last few months.