I just read this article on the "Quiverfull" movement where the idea is to have as many kids as possible and that "God is the only one who can open or close the womb". Some of these idiots have 12, 18 and 20 kids.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'll just assume that everyone on this forum is intelligent enough to know the reasons why this is a really bad idea, such as our severely dwindling environmental resources, for one.

On a more mundane level, every time someone complains about a new development going up behind their house, or long lines at the supermarket, or horrible traffic, I feel like screaming "that's because people are having too many *bleeping* kids!

It makes me so mad that people are so dumb.

I raised this question because I have 2 boys and if they should ever find themselves as the man in a situation like this (God forbid), I would desperately try to fight for their rights, and mine as a grandparent. But it looks like it would be futile.

It is tough, Missy - even when abortion is not part of the equation. My youngest son has a child that was born out of wedlock. The baby's mother called off the wedding shortly after she found out she was pregnant. My son filed suit to force her to put his name on the birth certificate, allow him visitation, etc. He won, but it has been an on-going struggle for almost 13 years. I will say, however, that every time they go before the judge, he remarks on how most men would be delighted if they were given the chance to walk away with no child support, etc. So I'm guessing that a dad who even wants his rights as a parent is a rare thing.

You know what, it's not luck, it's about choices. He chooses not to let what happened to him as a child define who he is as an adult. I'm sorry your family members didn't make better choices.

That makes two of us, their choices sucked! I am doing all I humanely can to show my son that's what happens when you make bad choices. Unfortunately, having a 'normal' person an outcome of an abusive upbringing usaully is NOT the norm, just read the newspapers, visit a welfare office, home for abused children, prison, etc.

It is tough, Missy - even when abortion is not part of the equation. My youngest son has a child that was born out of wedlock. The baby's mother called off the wedding shortly after she found out she was pregnant. My son filed suit to force her to put his name on the birth certificate, allow him visitation, etc. He won, but it has been an on-going struggle for almost 13 years. I will say, however, that every time they go before the judge, he remarks on how most men would be delighted if they were given the chance to walk away with no child support, etc. So I'm guessing that a dad who even wants his rights as a parent is a rare thing.

I'm sorry to hear your story about your son. At least he is being a real man, fessing up, and taking responsibility for his actions. Not very common anymore. Any man can be a father, but it takes a special person to be a dad!

You know what, it's not luck, it's about choices. He chooses not to let what happened to him as a child define who he is as an adult.

That's absolutely true, Missy. Blaming every character flaw and every bad choice on your rotten childhood is the biggest cop-out in the world. I just want to tell those people, you are not Cinderella and there is no handsome prince waiting in the wings. Get over it, and get off your ass and make things better for yourself, 'cause no one else wants to hear your sad story.

That makes two of us, their choices sucked! Unfortunately, having a 'normal' person an outcome of an abusive upbringing usaully is NOT the norm, just read the newspapers, visit a welfare office, home for abused children, prison, etc.

Sure, but how do you know? The people that come from abusive homes and turn their life "around" so to speak, aren't in the news, in the welfare line, or prison, so nobody really knows about them.....know what I mean?

OK, if CHOICE is sooooo horrible, then what about birth control and sex education? Like I said before, outlawing all choice will NOT stop people from having NON procreational sex. Unfortunately, non procreational sex is in our society to stay. Maybe if we outlaw all abortions, then how about all strip clubs and ALL adult entertainment period (not something I'm really into anyway). In this male dominated society, we know that the 'adult' enterainment industry will NEVER be outlawed and the online porn industry is supposidly a multi BILLION dollar business. Hmmmm ponder that one.....

Sure, but how do you know? The people that come from abusive homes and turn their life "around" so to speak, aren't in the news, in the welfare line, or prison, so nobody really knows about them.....know what I mean?

Then God love'em. They broke the cycle!

OK, if CHOICE is sooooo horrible, then what about birth control and sex education?

This is what I would like to do as one small part of sex education....

I work in the clerk of courts office and, lucky me, I get to handle all of the child support cases. I think it should be required for teenage boys and girls to sit through child support hearings, maybe THAT would scare them into abstinance!!! It's quite a spectacle.

I'm being sarcastic about the abstinence, I know that is not reality! But I really wish they could be more responsible, ie: don't rely on just the pill or just a condom, USE BOTH!!

This is what I would like to do as one small part of sex education....

I work in the clerk of courts office and, lucky me, I get to handle all of the child support cases. I think it should be required for teenage boys and girls to sit through child support hearings, maybe THAT would scare them into abstinance!!! It's quite a spectacle.

I'm being sarcastic about the abstinence, I know that is not reality! But I really wish they could be more responsible, ie: don't rely on just the pill or just a condom, USE BOTH!!

I AGREE WITH YOU 100% ON THAT ONE!

Ok, picture yourself in Utopia. No abortions whatsoever, and I mean EVER. To what extent should society as a whole $pay$ for social services for these unwanted children? Like kids forced to be born w/severe disabilities, life threatening medical conditions, drug addicted, neglected, abused etc? Will all the anti choice folks be adopting at least one of these kids and raising them to be a positive contributing member of society? How about the bigger strain on the healthcare system, Medicaid?

I AGREE WITH YOU 100% ON THAT ONE!

Wow, see!! We CAN all get along!! :clap2:

the online porn industry is supposidly a multi BILLION dollar business.

Way beyond supposedly.

Gaming drives development of new technology, and porn drives development of connectivity.

OK, if CHOICE is sooooo horrible, then what about birth control and sex education? Like I said before, outlawing all choice will NOT stop people from having NON procreational sex. Unfortunately, non procreational sex is in our society to stay. Maybe if we outlaw all abortions, then how about all strip clubs and ALL adult entertainment period (not something I'm really into anyway). In this male dominated society, we know that the 'adult' enterainment industry will NEVER be outlawed and the online porn industry is supposidly a multi BILLION dollar business. Hmmmm ponder that one.....

I completely agree... I am a Christian and my Bible says that no sin is greater than the other. Society deems things worse. I sin everyday, I over eat for one (gluantany-sp). I don't feel that my place on Earth is to sit in judgement and condemn others. I believe that we will alll have a maker that we have to go before one day. I won't be condemned for your sins and you won't be condemned for mine. People make mistakes and people repent. No one on this Earth is perfect.

I personally believe that premartial sex is wrong and that is probably what causes most of these abortions. People aren't going to stop having sex, but I don't see anything wrong with teaching abstince. IMO, abstince and then birth control.

Yes, when push comes to shove, it is the individual themself that has to deal with what they did or didn't do, regardless what others 'think' is correct. Guess that goes back to being judgmental.

Oh, BTW Sunta, did you ever think your post would be so popular?

Just my thoughts on a few issues that have been talked about in this thread:

1) I personally would never have an abortion. I could never live with myself. However, I do not feel it is my right to tell someone else what to do if they are faced with that situation.

2) I think this may be an unpopular stand based on the posts I have read, but I do believe 100% the father should have a say in the matter. If the father is absent or does not care, that is one thing. But if he is present and does not want the baby to be aborted, then his feelings and wishes need to be taken into consideration as well. He is not just a sperm-donor, he is the father of the child. It is not his fault that he does not have the ability to carry the child in his body for 9 months. Just because the female is the one who carries the child should not give her the right to make the decision to abort the child without the consent of the father.

3) I am sick and tired of hearing people blame their behavior on their upbringing. Ok, so you were abused as a child. That is a horrible thing to have to deal with. However, if you grow up to be an abuser yourself, don't use the fact that you were abused as a child as your excuse. That is a cop out. You knew it was wrong when your parents or whoever was abusing you and you know it is wrong for you to do so as an adult. The abuser needs to be held accountable for their actions, not their parents or their upbringing.