I just read this article on the "Quiverfull" movement where the idea is to have as many kids as possible and that "God is the only one who can open or close the womb". Some of these idiots have 12, 18 and 20 kids.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'll just assume that everyone on this forum is intelligent enough to know the reasons why this is a really bad idea, such as our severely dwindling environmental resources, for one.

On a more mundane level, every time someone complains about a new development going up behind their house, or long lines at the supermarket, or horrible traffic, I feel like screaming "that's because people are having too many *bleeping* kids!

It makes me so mad that people are so dumb.

Abusing kids is extremely serious. However, there is no statistical correlation between an unplanned pregnancy and an abused child. Many, many abused children were wanted and planned. Furthermore, brutally killing a child so he won't be abused seems a little counter-productive, don't you think?

I don't care about statistics. I am going by what I have seen. The person doing the statistics can say what they want, but I know what I have witnessed. And furthermore, I doubt they are putting the parents in therapy and asking them why they abused their kid. Most of the idiots just go straight to jail (thank God!!).

All the kids I keep hearing are sold are these little causasian babies.

Most of the women having elective abortions are Caucasian.

Who has the say for the baby, since he can't speak for himself? We all know that an infant, left alone without nutrition and care, will die. Is it OK for people to kill their infants by starvation? To let them simply die because they opt not to provide care?

No, it's not OK for people to kill their infants by starvation. No, it's not OK to abandon them to simply die without care. It's also not OK to throw newborns out of windows (as I just this second heard that a 14-year-old--the baby's "mother"--did yesterday in the Bronx). I do not equate babies with nonviable fetuses, though. And no, I can't firmly define "nonviable" for you. But--to me and so far to the law--a fetus in an early stage of development is simply not a person (yet) and as such does not have rights (yet). And once again, we're back to the "where does personhood begin" discussion, to which there is no one answer that makes sense to everyone.

It absolutely breaks my heart that that 14-year-old was so scared, so uneducated, and so unsupported that she felt a window was her best option. Unless we can fix ALL the problems she faced, making girls and women with unwanted pregnancies into captive, unwilling incubators will improve exactly nothing.

I guess I have listened to too many stories of my mother who was raised by a mother that didn't want her.

Everyone who has given birth to an unplanned (unwanted) baby, raise your hand. :wave:

Statistically, in locations where the incidence of abortion is low, so is the incidence of child abuse. When abortion increases, child abuse does also. When abortion rates sharply increase, child abuse does also. There are many conclusions that can be drawn, some valid, some not, but it remains a fact that unplanned or unwanted does not equal abused.

Most of the women having elective abortions are Caucasian.

I'm not saying they aren't b/c their are more white women than other races. I was speaking about the babies that need to be adopted. They all need to be adopted, but it seems like the babies that are adopted the most are caucasian babies. But there are also more white people in the U.S., but then more whites are adopting other races. My point is still that a lot of other babies aren't getting adopted.

regardless of what the other posts I wrote seemed to say when analyzed so thoroughly.

No thorough analysis is needed when the contradiction is so blatant.

You can't expect to tell people that if they see grey, they do not value human life, and walk away unchallenged.

But--to me and so far to the law--a fetus in an early stage of development is simply not a person (yet) and as such does not have rights (yet). And once again, we're back to the "where does personhood begin" discussion, to which there is no one answer that makes sense to everyone.

The answer doesn't need to make sense to everyone. It needs to be based on scientific fact. Not amorphous religious beliefs, belief about when the soul arrives, dependence on what medical technology is doing "this year" for premature births, whether or not he woman "feels" like being a mother, or anything else. How should we, as a society, define a person? If we define a person only as a person after a full and complete birth, then I guess the D&X late-term abortion procedure (aka partial-birth abortion) whereby the baby is delivered feet first and then stabbed at the base of the neck and the brains sucked out so there's no possibility of accidental "live birth", is A-OK.

But if we allow each pregnant mother to define life based on her own preference, what do we do when she decides that her 2 day old infant isn't up to snuff? After all, the major change from 3 days ago was the baby's place of residence.

This country used to define a black person as 3/5 of a person. Were they wrong? ABSOLUTELY. What an individual or a group of people choose to believe is irrelevant. What do science and logic tell us?

We must have a standard definition for life. Right now, we don't. If a pregnant woman is hit by a drunk driver and the baby dies, the other driver can be charged with some form of murder or homicide. What happens if she was driving to an abortion clinic? The other driver then accomplished the same goal for which she was headed. But, many say, it wasn't his choice to make. In other words, it wasn't his baby to kill. But since when does a human being's personhood depend on whether another person values their life?

It absolutely breaks my heart that that 14-year-old was so scared, so uneducated, and so unsupported that she felt a window was her best option. Unless we can fix ALL the problems she faced, making girls and women with unwanted pregnancies into captive, unwilling incubators will improve exactly nothing.

It seems to me that the 14-year-old had access to "safe, legal abortion" but it still didn't solve the problem. She still abused her child. Therefore the "abort them before you have a chance to abuse them" argument just didn't work!

I am a mother of six children. Sometimes I ask myself, "why the heck did I do this... what was I thinking??"

My children are the ones who wore the hand-me-down clothes, drove around in the old blue station wagon, and never had their own rooms. There were always dirty dishes in the sink, clothes spilling out of hampers, some mini-crisis every hour, sibling squabbles, and dogs barking.

But our home was where the neighborhood children would come because their homes were empty. At our house there was always someone to talk to them, someone to laugh with them, someone to feed them.

As I marvel at the awesome young adults my children have become, I can see that their peers still gravitate towards them. My children are the ones who know how to mediate, who know to tolerate, who know how to sacrifice, who know how to compromise. They are the ones who know the value of hard work and team work. They appreciate much and covet nothing. They are honest, hard workers and they would give you the coat off their back if you needed it. They are productive, income earning, college graduates and college bound individuals who have much to offer this world. They will be paying into social security so that each of you will have something to live on in your old age.

I wish everyone could experience the joy of Christmas morning with a house filled with giggles and laughter. I can't imagine life any other way.

(And if my children heard you call me a "religious fanatic" it would give them a good chuckle!)

Peace.

Merry Christmas to you to Nella.

I had only one child but my daughter had 3 boys, back to back.

At the time she announced her 3rd pregnancy, she was only 22 and I WAS

dismayed, I can't deny it, but now

those boys are a joy and a blessing, can't imagine life without them, they are noisy, rowdy and messy. The house is filled with fun when they are around.

My oldest grandson is now 8, and he is sitting on the bed beside me now, watching football, and during comercials, very earnestly trying to explain the game of football to me. I am very earnestly pretending to be fascinated.

It is such a tragedy that each and every child born can't be loved and nurtured, but life is such that the best we can do is BE the best we can be and provide a good example, support and no judgement towards.

I guess I believe that our final destiny is already set, our job now is to take it a day at a time. And to just be nice to each other. Just call me pollyanna.

And I have seen kids who lived with varying forms of abuse, become adults with "normal" lives, successful lives. In fact, I am married to one. So please spare me the "they're better off" routine 'cuz I ain't buyin'.

.....

Boy, you must be one of the lucky ones then! The majority of adults I've seen raised in abusive situations have either been in prison (mutiple times), on drugs, pregnant at 14, or all of the above (some in my own extended family). I wish I lived in your utopia! I still just DON'T undersand that if you are so against abortion, just don't have one! How are the anti choice folks to judge someone that's having a bad enough time as it is?

Okay, so what if the Dad wants the baby? Does the mother still have a right to abort it if the Dad is wanting to keep the baby? After all, it is not "UNwanted" anymore.....

Sure, if the dad wants to carry it for 9 months, more power to 'em! If men could get pregnant, there would be MANY 100% effective methods of birth control.

Boy, you must be one of the lucky ones then! The majority of adults I've seen raised in abusive situations have either been in prison (mutiple times), on drugs, pregnant at 14, or all of the above (some in my own extended family). I wish I lived in your utopia!

My mother-in-law admits that she abused her two sons, both physically and emotionally. My DH and his brother agree. They have told me that other children would not come to their house out of genuine fear of my MIL. She once threw something at my husband, but hit a neighbor's child by mistake. However, you will not find two more productive, well-adjusted, loving men. They both are retired from long, stable careers (my BIL with the US Dept of Defense). Neither drinks nor smokes and they have never done drugs or been arrested.

Just because a woman "might" abuse her child does not make it okay to abort it. She "might" abuse her elderly parents too, but killing them off before she gets the chance is hardly a good solution.

I still just DON'T undersand that if you are so against abortion, just don't have one! How are the anti choice folks to judge someone that's having a bad enough time as it is?

Pro-life supporters believe they are called to protect the rights of unborn children, much as you would feel compelled to protect a child who has already been born, but was in danger of being killed. It's not about preventing the abortion...it's about saving the baby.

Sure, if the dad wants to carry it for 9 months, more power to 'em! If men could get pregnant, there would be MANY 100% effective methods of birth control.

I raised this question because I have 2 boys and if they should ever find themselves as the man in a situation like this (God forbid), I would desperately try to fight for their rights, and mine as a grandparent. But it looks like it would be futile.

Boy, you must be one of the lucky ones then! The majority of adults I've seen raised in abusive situations have either been in prison (mutiple times), on drugs, pregnant at 14, or all of the above (some in my own extended family). I wish I lived in your utopia!

You know what, it's not luck, it's about choices. He chooses not to let what happened to him as a child define who he is as an adult. I'm sorry your family members didn't make better choices.