I just read this article on the "Quiverfull" movement where the idea is to have as many kids as possible and that "God is the only one who can open or close the womb". Some of these idiots have 12, 18 and 20 kids.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'll just assume that everyone on this forum is intelligent enough to know the reasons why this is a really bad idea, such as our severely dwindling environmental resources, for one.

On a more mundane level, every time someone complains about a new development going up behind their house, or long lines at the supermarket, or horrible traffic, I feel like screaming "that's because people are having too many *bleeping* kids!

It makes me so mad that people are so dumb.

I am from a family of 10 children. I am the 6th child. My parents were NEVER on welfare. They paid for everything themselves. All of us kids have grown up to be good, hard-working adults & contribute to the society in a big way. We are all educated & successful. We aren't crazy christian people. My mother loved children & was very very good at raising us. There was lots of love in our home.

The posts I have read on here make me cry! You don't know my mother, but you are calling her an idiot because she chose to have 10 children.

If everyone had a mother like I did, this world would be a much better place.

Yes, that is the thing with "theories" like this one. It conveniently ignores the reality of actual people. Thanks for weighing in, Diane. I hope it helps to put a face on the reality of who is being insulted, and how much words can hurt.

My Mother is from a family of 9. My Grandmother and Grandfather were so family oriented and love children so much that they found a unique way spread thier love and kindness throughout their community.

If you visit www.cabbagetownsanta.ca you will see a video of my uncle, Tom Crewe Jr. My Grandfather was nicknamed "the CabbageTown Santa" and when you finish watching the video, or anytime during, you can click on "skip Into" and then explore the story of the cabbage town santa....this man who had 9 children, one who is taking over in his place.

Did this all start with and Idiot, I don't think so. Did it breed idiots....I don't think so. My Grandfather also has 32 Grandchildren and 16 Great Granchildren....and we are ALL educated and work...in fact, most of us are self employed in successful businesses and some with professional designations. Idiots indeed.

Carol

I think it's fair to state that I have not "scorned" anyone nor "attacked" anyone, as I have been accused of doing.

Well, I think based on the last few posts from the children of "idiots", some people feel "scorned" and "attacked". I sincerely doubt that you never intended it that way. When you make a blanket statement to a huge group of people that people who choose to have large families are "dumb" and "idiots", you must know that some of the people in that group either come from or have large families. I believe you were savvy enough to know that your words would offend, but you wanted to broadcast your disdain for Christians so much that you didn't care who you offended.

Everyone keeps talking about parents and grandparents. I dont think that it even counts .. it can not compare to raising a child in TODAYS world. A world of two parents working full time, the violence.etc..

I think expectations and abilities to care for children now are very different then 20 yrs ago. I mean shoot. they had no one killing for PS3's and tennis shoes were less then 100.00...

lfe 30yrs ago was SOOO different. I thought the topic was about 17 & 20 kids NOW.

And Carlene. We may not agree on religion, maybe not alot of things... but after your comment about going to Russia and your hubby volunteering to drop you off... it makes me want to spend a weekend at YOUR house! You sound like you all have a really great time.

What ever happened to the word NO? On the flip side, we also have better resources today to help cope with those obstacles....but still, what's wrong with saying No like our Father's and Grandfathers did?

Carol

woody...good point about better resources. But at what cost.

I have a book of dead family(mostly children) from the 1890's.

Typically you had a bunch of kids but you knew most of them wouldnt make it to adulthood. (kinda like snakes and fish) They were farm hands so you needed alot of them.

Being poor you couldnt have a bunch of tin photos , but when they died you had a burial photo taken. ( it is very neat, not gruesome. I have a forensic hystory... so dont beat me up about this book please)

Oh, I think she fully recognizes that her posts reflect disdain for Christian beliefs. She isn't stupid, and I doubt that she would be very open to etiquette lessons, considering the fact that Sunta has received pretty much as good as she's given.

In case no one has noticed, the Atheists who post here are a very bright bunch. Personally, I like just about all of them. I don't necessarily agree with everything they post, but I have never agreed 100% with anyone, so what's the difference? The difference is that I don't feel like I have to defend the Christian mindset at every opportunity. I believe - they don't. In the end, if I'm right, I get to say, "I told you so" and they get to ask for ice Water. If I'm wrong, nothing happens. Sounds like a safe bet to me.

Thanks for the compliment, Carlene, and I will accept it as another atheist. What bothers many of us is that we see that many Christians, in particular the Fundamentalist and Charismatic Christians, have opted for a narrow and particular version of Christianity without troubling to examine either the framework of their beliefs, or the Bible itself. It is clear that these are Christians who have never taken the trouble to examine this document carefully and so have not noted its internal inconsistancies nor that it is an often somber, an often brutal document.

The careful atheist becomes concerned because the careless Christian always cherrypicks. And it is these Christians who then propose to hijack the constitution and the working agenda of the single most powerful country in the industrialised world at this time for their own ends. Make no mistake, no other modern and sucessfully functioning country in the international arena is a theocracy.

We are thinking folk who are concerned about the current state of affairs, as we should be, and it is this, I believe, that makes folks like Sunta, etc. charge into these discussions with passion. This is always a good thing. This is a reminder that democracy still exists.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/05/us/05liberty.html?ex=1309752000&en=633335bb68bac96a&ei=5088

I am not an American but I must say that I do find this version of the statue to be deeply offensive and I can understand anyone's outrage. Let us speak frankly here. This statue has been representative of the spirit of America, a country which has welcomed generations of immigrants without regard to religion or to social standing. Those hopeful immigrants who funnelled through Ellis Island saw the Statue of Liberty before they were able to place foot on American soil.

I don't know how Americans interpret this symbol anymore but for many of us the Statue of Liberty still signifies that the country she symbolically guards is a place of freedom, brotherhood and equality. This was the spirit in which the French nation presented her to you. It was an entirely humanistic and secular passion that lay behind this gift and this spirit must be respected for the Statue of Liberty must be accessible to all Americans.

Surely you can understand, when you think about it, that to trick out this powerful symbol of what America stands for with a symbol that belongs to a specific group is deeply offensive and should not be allowed. Why, for a non believer it is as offensive as seeing the Lady chugging down a bottle of coke! I am surprised that your country has allowed this kind of thing. It is disrespectful.

My mother came from a family of dirt poor sharecroppers, there were 13 children in all. My grandmother married my grandfather, who's wife died in childbirth. She left him with 8 boys. My grandmother took on this monumental task and had 5 additional children of her own. Amazing.

My father came from the same sort of situation, only his family was all born from one father and one mother. There were 11.

I have never sit across a single dinner table in my life and looked at only a few people for Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthdays, even funerals. I had far more love and support than any amount of money could ever attempt to buy, because family is all we ever had.

We may be dumb, stupid, uneducated, etc, but we don't want for help when we need it and we never cry alone in times of sorrow and we all Celebrate for one another in times of good things. No amount of money can ever buy this and I am so grateful that when someone passes in our family, we grieve, we love one another and we remember them fondly - we have never had to stoop to greediness and the ugliness I've seen in families who's lives are all about money.

God does provide, even for the poor and the uneducated, just as He promised.

Do I believe people should do this in today's world? Not at all.

With the heathenistic society I see, it scares me to death to think of bringing more children into this world AND I've met many 'educated' idiots who show no sign of common sense whatsoever. Maybe, like Hitler, we could dispose of them as well.

Sounds like you came from a fine family. I am a little bit envious, you know.

I am from a family of 10 children. I am the 6th child. My parents were NEVER on welfare. They paid for everything themselves. All of us kids have grown up to be good, hard-working adults & contribute to the society in a big way. We are all educated & successful. We aren't crazy christian people. My mother loved children & was very very good at raising us. There was lots of love in our home.

The posts I have read on here make me cry! You don't know my mother, but you are calling her an idiot because she chose to have 10 children.

If everyone had a mother like I did, this world would be a much better place.

Diane I 100% agree with you! It is easy to just assume the way things are because you see them from the outside, like many are looking. 10 children takes an incredible amount of love and paitence. I think they are overlooking that, and trying to control someone else's choices.

What bothers many of us is that we see that many Christians, in particular the Fundamentalist and Charismatic Christians, have opted for a narrow and particular version of Christianity without troubling to examine either the framework of their beliefs, or the Bible itself.

It is unfortunate that you have only come into contact with Christians who don't understand the totality of Jesus' teachings. That is not universally the case, I can assure you. It is also why we don't follow or profess to follow other Christians, but rather God Himself.

It is clear that these are Christians who have never taken the trouble to examine this document carefully and so have not noted its internal inconsistancies nor that it is an often somber, an often brutal document.

I've examined the Bible carefully for many years now and have yet to find internal inconsistencies. I have heard many non-Christians blithely claim that there are such inconsistencies, but I've never had any demonstrated to me. Perhaps that's because not all non-Christians have examined either the framework of their beliefs or the Bible itself.

The careful atheist becomes concerned because the careless Christian always cherrypicks.

Members of every group cherrypick. I've never met a consistent liberal in my entire life. And I've known quite a few. For example, I have a family member who is a rabid environmentalist. Yet when he had children, they used disposable diapers. Why? Because it was easier than using cloth. When it suited his needs, he bent his ideology. When there was a tree in the wildlife preserve below his house which blocked his view, he asked my husband to assist him in cutting it down. My husband suggested a chainsaw, but he didn't want to use one because he was afraid the neighbors would hear. So they chopped it down. This Greenpeace-donating tree-hugger had no problem "bending the rules" when it suited his needs (or his property value). He does not stand alone; as I said, I have NEVER met a consistent liberal.

This is a reminder that democracy still exists.

I doubt you will find a more avid proponent of democracy than myself, and I am also a Fundamentalist Christian.

My mother came from a family of dirt poor sharecroppers, there were 13 children in all. My grandmother married my grandfather, who's wife died in childbirth. She left him with 8 boys. My grandmother took on this monumental task and had 5 additional children of her own. Amazing.

My father came from the same sort of situation, only his family was all born from one father and one mother. There were 11.

I have never sit across a single dinner table in my life and looked at only a few people for Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthdays, even funerals. I had far more love and support than any amount of money could ever attempt to buy, because family is all we ever had.

We may be dumb, stupid, uneducated, etc, but we don't want for help when we need it and we never cry alone in times of sorrow and we all celebrate for one another in times of good things. No amount of money can ever buy this and I am so grateful that when someone passes in our family, we grieve, we love one another and we remember them fondly - we have never had to stoop to greediness and the ugliness I've seen in families who's lives are all about money.

God does provide, even for the poor and the uneducated, just as He promised.

Do I believe people should do this in today's world? Not at all.

With the heathenistic society I see, it scares me to death to think of bringing more children into this world AND I've met many 'educated' idiots who show no sign of common sense whatsoever. Maybe, like Hitler, we could dispose of them as well.

Don't think for one second you are dumb nor your family! Ignorance does NOT come from lack of education, nor obviosuly education itself. Ignorance is just a lack of common sense I believe!

I am from a family of 10 children. I am the 6th child. My parents were NEVER on welfare. They paid for everything themselves. All of us kids have grown up to be good, hard-working adults & contribute to the society in a big way. We are all educated & successful. We aren't crazy christian people. My mother loved children & was very very good at raising us. There was lots of love in our home.

The posts I have read on here make me cry! You don't know my mother, but you are calling her an idiot because she chose to have 10 children.

If everyone had a mother like I did, this world would be a much better place.

Diane...

I am extremely envious. My mom didn't enjoy being a parent. That may have come later, after she and my dad split up, and she had to go it alone, I don't know. She did everything she was supposed to. She kept us clean, and fed. She bought us most of the same stuff the other kids had. She just never seemed happy to be doing any of the mom stuff. She stopped putting up a tree at Christmas as soon as I left home. I always felt like I was a huge burden to my mother.

My brother was much older than me, so I grew up almost like an only child. I was a latchkey child, as my older (almost 40 when I was born)single mother worked two jobs most of my life, and she was tired when she got home. She didn't like having a bunch of neighborhood kids in the house, making a mess and playing loud music. It was lonely.

I loved babies. My single greatest desire growing up was to get married and have a bunch of kids. I stopped at four, but I tried really hard to be a GREAT mom. I hope my kids think back on their childhoods with half the warmth and appreciation you have for yours.

Just thought I'd mention that Dick Cheney's oldest daughter gave birth to her fifth child in July. Not only is she highly educated, but she's one smart lady, as well.

And his younger daughter - yes, the Lesbian - is expecting a baby, too. Congrats to them both!