I just read this article on the "Quiverfull" movement where the idea is to have as many kids as possible and that "God is the only one who can open or close the womb". Some of these idiots have 12, 18 and 20 kids.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'll just assume that everyone on this forum is intelligent enough to know the reasons why this is a really bad idea, such as our severely dwindling environmental resources, for one.

On a more mundane level, every time someone complains about a new development going up behind their house, or long lines at the supermarket, or horrible traffic, I feel like screaming "that's because people are having too many *bleeping* kids!

It makes me so mad that people are so dumb.

However, if our country were NOT formed with belief in a Supreme Being, how do we interpret THIS part of the document:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"???

This part of the document makes no claims about what sort of "Creator" did the endowing. If something exists, it's logical to say it was "created" no matter how it came into being.

I believe in God, I just spell it differently: N-A-T-U-R-E

For the record, they make me angry too!

Although they loudly proclaim they are Christian, they aren't following Christ's teachings. Although Christ would speak out against abortion (since the Bible refers to unborn babies as "life"), for example, he would never bomb an abortion clinic (I can't even comprehend how any "Christian" could justify that). And instead of picketing a gay person's funeral, he would instead be comforting the mourners! Anyone who would intentionally cause others pain in any way, is not following Christ's teachings. And it's hard for us non-extremists (which is the vast majority of Christians!) to sometimes be lumped in with these extremist groups (in general I mean).

For the record, I agree with you.

Sunta, thank you for the change in tone of your arguements. It helps alot to facililitate real conversation. And again, I'm sorry I egged it on the way I did. I shouldn't have.

I want to thank you for something else a bit odd. Last Tuesday I quit smoking. Yup, no more butts out the window as I teach my children not to litter. No more second-hand smoke for anyone around me, even the smoke from my hair and clothes. No more filters in the land fills. No more money going to tobacco companies, and no more of my cigarrette taxes going to the government. Best of all, no more smoke in my lungs. Good decision all around, I'd say.

In order to avoid time spent on my deck firing up, I indulged myself in a bit of extra computer time. Along comes this thread. What a diversion for me! I'm not sure what contribution nicotine withdrawal added to my responses, if any, but all this mess sure was helpful in distracting me from my routine, and allowing me to change that nasty habit. An odd thing to thank you for, but thank you I must.

I'm on Day 10 of no smoking and it's going pretty well. Yet another monkey off my back in the pursuit of clean living.

wow - now I know why I've been avoiding this thread! Deep stuff! My first thought when I read about the quiverfull thing was - apparently none of them are bowhunters! LOL I know the scripture but a good hunter only carries a few arrows with him. I asked my deer hunters - no one ever carries more then 5 arrows - my DH carries 3 - imagine that! I just happen to have 3 children -coinikydink? Maybe. I haven't researched it but I doubt that even in biblical days did they carry 18-20!

One thing that Suntra said that I've heard before and it really irks me is the "Based on what I've seen, I just don't think that most fundamentalist Christians are very nice people, whatsoever." Why? Because they are out spoken on issues they feel strongly about? So because we don't agree with them on their issues they aren't nice people? Thats like me saying "Based on what I've seen, I just don't think that most gay people, or people who are for abortions are very nice people, whatsoever." Its ridiculous because I know better - I respect their rights to believe what they choose to believe and know it has nothing to do with them being "nice" people - I may not agree with them but that doesn't mean they aren't nice. Fundamental Christians do at times get very vocal in their beliefs and sometimes it comes off as self-righteousness but that doesn't mean they aren't nice people.

As for the picketting gay funerals and the such - those people aren't just fundamental christians - they are radicals. How about that group that goes to the soldiers funerals - how infuriating is that? Picketting abortion clinics is one thing but blowing them up is another - do you get where I'm going? I consider myself to be a fundamental christian - a right winger - but I know Jesus well enough to know he doesn't support these things. And I think I'm pretty darn nice and I would say MOST of the christians I know are nice.

I don't think that Sunta has been as rude or as abrasive as Bill O'Reilly

Hey, leave Bill out of this!! He's not here to defend himself!! :nervous

I want to thank you for something else a bit odd. Last Tuesday I quit smoking. Yup, no more butts out the window as I teach my children not to litter. No more second-hand smoke for anyone around me, even the smoke from my hair and clothes. No more filters in the land fills. No more money going to tobacco companies, and no more of my cigarrette taxes going to the government. Best of all, no more smoke in my lungs. Good decision all around, I'd say.

Firstly, a big heartfelt congratulations to you. That is truly wonderful, and I mean that.

If anyone can raise H*** enough to divert people away from their normal schedules and to a rousing argument, it's me. I'm the loudmouth, the bad girl, the rebel (well, actually I'm a big dork, but I like to think of myself as the bad girl; my friends and I joke often that we're in a "girl gang" even though we're in our 30's and 40's LOL).

I'm very happy that my latest rant contributed in some way to such a triumph.

Congratulations again.

Last Tuesday I quit smoking.

Congrats, Kathy! I will be 11 years smoke-free next month! You are so going to love being free from cigarettes. One word of advice.....don't even consider having "just one". I did that a year after I quit the first time (it was in the hospital parking lot, the day my grandson died). One is all it takes to suck you back into a nicotine addiction (no pun intended).

Yup, it's a pack a day or nothing for me. I quit, of course, though 2 pregnancies and nursing, and went right back at it. No "just one on occasion" for me. If I could smoke 1 or 2 a day I'd probably never quit. Time to let it go. Thanks for the congrats, ya'll.

One thing that Suntra said that I've heard before and it really irks me is the "Based on what I've seen, I just don't think that most fundamentalist Christians are very nice people, whatsoever." Why? Because they are out spoken on issues they feel strongly about? So because we don't agree with them on their issues they aren't nice people? Thats like me saying "Based on what I've seen, I just don't think that most gay people, or people who are for abortions are very nice people, whatsoever." Its ridiculous because I know better - I respect their rights to believe what they choose to believe and know it has nothing to do with them being "nice" people - I may not agree with them but that doesn't mean they aren't nice. Fundamental Christians do at times get very vocal in their beliefs and sometimes it comes off as self-righteousness but that doesn't mean they aren't nice people.

Let me explain. I have many many examples, so let me try to consolodate some of them by telling you what people see when they look at fundamentalists:

We see a radical group of people who preach against Gays, yet their leader is Gay himself. They preach against hypocrites, yet themselves appear to be the biggest hypocrites of all.

We see their leaders constantly being involved in scandals, and then being absolved of all wrongdoing with the simple statement "everyone is a sinner."

We see megachurches preying on old people and people with limited incomes, swidling them of their money and leaving them broke and destitute.

We see them then using this money to build giant houses, ever more fancy church facilities, and take fancy vacations.

We see fake faith "healing" which is basically like selling snake oil, because it's been proven that they plant people in the audience. (I believe some faith healing is real, I'm referring to the circus-like behavior that is fake.)

We see reverands picketing funerals of Gay people, with horrible signs that say "God kills Fags".

We see people stepping down from fundamentalist groups because those groups refuse to focus on real issues like hunger, the environment, and the poor, but instead insist only on focusing on homosexuality and abortion as their sole issues.

We see, in our everyday lives, people who claim to be Christian but who are personally mean, nasty, and hateful. (Not referring to anyone here, but rather other people I know personally.)

We see people who prey on kids on college campuses, trying to push their agenda on 18 year olds who have limited knowledge of the world.

We hear them on the radio, telling women not to work, that their place is in the home, and in the kitchen, and we fear for the future of their girls. That they'll never live up to their full potential, their goals and dreams.

We fear for the future of their children, who we perceive as being brainwashed into a life that they would never have wanted otherwise.

We see them bombing abortion clinics and murdering abortion doctors.

We see them preaching hate against Gay people.

We see them murdering Gay people.

We see a statue that desicrate the Statue of Liberty, belonging to a church called "World Overcomers", as if they want to "take over the world" and we view it with as much fear as we view fundamentalist Muslims.

We see movies like "Jesus Camp" where the leader of the camp actually says she admires the way Muslims teach their children to die for their God and to do suicide bombings.

Some people (not me) actually quake in fear so much when they talk about fundamentalist Christians that they actually start crying because the future of our country looks so bleak.

We see people who want to take away our individual rights and freedoms, such as the freedom to marry who we love.

We see people who have the same attitudes and behavior as their predecessors, who burned non-Christians at the stake.

Many people (not me) think that fundamentalist Christians are exactly the same fundamentalist Muslims, and that another Crusade is not far away.

Now, let me tell you what we don't see:

We don't see compassion for the poor, concern for the environment, or any good works in the community.

We certainly don't see them distributing meals to homeless people, setting up clinics to help get people off drugs, or anything else that benefits their community.

Please know I am NOT talking about individual people or churches, because I know that they do these things, I am talking about the fundamentalist "mega churches", and the movement as a whole. I'm talking about the majority of the movement.

That is impression that many people have about fundamentalists, and it's why I feel the way I do.

I hope this helps to clarify my position.

(If anyone needs references for the statements above, please let me know and I'd be happy to provide them. For example, I can't remember the name of the man who recently quit as president of a major fundamentalist group over these issues.)

I quit, of course, though 2 pregnancies and nursing...

I just hope no one has pictures of me as a nursing (smoking) mother.

Has anyone watched the cable show w/the Dugger family? There's a couple shows on, like, "15 kids and pregnant again" or something like that...Personally I think the whole family's nuts, and I'm sure they're being paid for having the shows made about them. It's like each time she's pregnant again (which is probably about every 9 months) they make a new show (which = more $). Now I know how they financed their new house the "had" to build! I start to watch it, then get ssssoooooooo irritated that this woman is breeding like a rabbit I turned it off because they're capitalizing on it. It's like they're crying for attention by doing this! Maybe I'm the weird one for only having one kid because I can't afford another at this time....

PS - yes, I was raised strict Catholic and fully believe in God and his teachings.

I've celebrated Solstice for decades.

However, if our country were NOT formed with belief in a Supreme Being, how do we interpret THIS part of the document:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"???

I don't think that the "their creator" in this context supports claims like "This was founded as a Christian country".

I think Mrs. Duggar has 18 children now. They live debt-free and home school. I see their children as polite, funny, well-adjusted and intelligent. I think she's waaay cool. If Discovery channel (or TLC or whoever) is willing to pay them to share their story, I'm watching!!! Noone is showing up at my house with a camera crew and money. More power to 'em. I'd do it, too. But I tend to like that kind of thing, so it doesn't really offend me. Perspective.

I wonder when she'll stop, though, and why she will? Will it take a doctor to say, "it's dangerous at this point for you to become pregnant again" or will she just go through menopause? LOL I don't know! and I don't understand ALL of the ideology behind it. I wouldn't choose that for me and my family. I just wouldn't. I'm not sure there's a cherry-pickin' Bible verse that could convict me to do that, either. ??? But I admire that family alot. I think what they are doing is worthy and honorable. For them.

Has anyone watched the cable show w/the Dugger family? There's a couple shows on, like, "15 kids and pregnant again" or something like that...Personally I think the whole family's nuts, and I'm sure they're being paid for having the shows made about them. It's like each time she's pregnant again (which is probably about every 9 months) they make a new show (which = more $). Now I know how they financed their new house the "had" to build! I start to watch it, then get ssssoooooooo irritated that this woman is breeding like a rabbit I turned it off because they're capitalizing on it. It's like they're crying for attention by doing this! Maybe I'm the weird one for only having one kid because I can't afford another at this time....

PS - yes, I was raised strict Catholic and fully believe in God and his teachings.

The Duggers have 16 children, including 2 sets of twins. The last was born about 18 months ago, but there has been no announcement of another pregnancy. Their web site is www.jimbo.info, if anyone is interested.

The Duggers are debt-free, an amazing accomplishment for any family. They are building a 7,000 square foot home without a mortgage. If they get paid for TV reality appearances, more power to them. So did Flavor Fav and those other weirdos. Personally, I'd rather watch the Duggers.

All their children are home-schooled and play the violin and piano. They take them on field trips and study a very wide varity of subjects, including basic law and medicine.

Jim Bob Dugger is able to provide financially for his family, and does. He owns a successful business and has serverd several terms as a State Representative and/or Senator.

Although this family may consume more than its fair share of non-renewable resources, I think they give back a huge, positive example to the country at large. Their kids are respectful, well-mannered, and focused. I would bet money that none of them grow up to be on welfare or behind bars.

The Duggers have chosen a less-traveled (and less popular) road. That doesn't mean they are "nuts". How well do your young children/grandchildren stack up to the Duggers? Mine tend toward materialism, laziness, and tantrums.

My biggest problem with this movement is this:

There are not that many people who are well-off enough to pull this off. The Duggers are an exception. They have the money to provide for 16 or so kids. Most people don't. Most families already have both parents working two jobs just to provide for a couple of kids. Even if a large family went without luxuries and just gave their kids the absolute necessities, it still wouldn't be possible for most families. If you are one of the very, very few couples that can do this, great. If not, you have no business bringing 18 or 20 kids into the world. Even just the necessities are expensive, just think how expensive it is for 18 kids. Doctor's appointments, dentistry (including braces), shoes, clothing, education, the cost of the large house you would need to buy (I don't care what you say, 18 kids will not fit into a three bedroom house), etc, etc, etc. Most people just wouldn't be able to do it. For those people, yes, they are nuts and idiots to have 18 kids.

FYI the FBI has been monitoring some of the fundamentalist mega churches along with the "compound" living Churches of the Mid west. I think that says alot. I feel compassion for the congregation... how did they get to a point that they allow ANYONE to run their life like that.

They are being monitiored for funding issues, child sex laws being broken and a slew of other reasons that I wont get into. When i think of fundamentalist i think of this, not everyday churchgoers.

My godsons parents are black baptists. Church for them is almost 5 hours long. Crazy? To me yes, but once or twice a year i visit with my godson and I have a lovely time. I do not and will not devote that much time to anyone. If i do it wil lbe to hang out with my parents or my sisters family, but it makes them happy and I am glad they found it for them.

Money making, mega church stuff is weird. I would think it an insult for my pastor to show up in a Benz and i drive a hooptie bc i give all my money to the church. It would be a slap in my face. That is why i shy away from oranized religion. It is not religion itself really, just SOME of the people that run it.