Do you believe in a god or gods?

[BJean 16]

patty, first you say: "Just thought I'd mention that I never went to Sunday school either. I found God when I was 25 years old. So there goes that "indoctrinated" theory."

But I guess you were exaggerating because then you admitted:

"my mom sent us occasionally to catechism when I was a child, cause she was catholic, but we were not taught anything about that faith at our home. When I say occasionally, I can remember going one school year on wednesdays after school for an hour. That's about it. I went to church 3 or 4 times as a child, cause my mom sent us with my older sister to get us out of the house so she could relax. Other than that, I never went to any church. I got married in the catholic church because that's the church my mom claimed as hers. I baptised my first 2 sons there also. (when you are a catholic christian, most of them that I knew, only used the church to do what they needed to do.)

Going to catechism counts in the indoctrination process. I'm surprised you don't realize that.

In order for you to get married in the Catholic Church, you attended some sessions - they were called instructions - prior to your wedding, unless your Catholic church was completely out of the ordinary. That counts for something when one thinks of having been indoctrinated.

And as for your last little comment, your Catholic church must REALLY have been out of the ordinary. Because if your "Catholic Christian" friends simply "used the church to "do what they needed to do" it was unlike any Catholic Church I've ever attended. And I have attended Catholic Churches all over the United States.

By the way, what in the world is a Catholic Christian?

[BJean 16]

Good for you HummingBird. You sound like a very nice person.

[pattygreen 5]

patty, first you say: "Just thought I'd mention that I never went to Sunday school either. I found God when I was 25 years old. So there goes that "indoctrinated" theory."

But I guess you were exaggerating because then you admitted:

"my mom sent us occasionally to catechism when I was a child, cause she was catholic, but we were not taught anything about that faith at our home. When I say occasionally, I can remember going one school year on wednesdays after school for an hour. That's about it. I went to church 3 or 4 times as a child, cause my mom sent us with my older sister to get us out of the house so she could relax. Other than that, I never went to any church. I got married in the catholic church because that's the church my mom claimed as hers. I baptised my first 2 sons there also. (when you are a catholic christian, most of them that I knew, only used the church to do what they needed to do.)

Going to catechism counts in the indoctrination process. I'm surprised you don't realize that.

I guess I didn't consider it being indoctrinated if I only went for a short while and didn't come away from it believeing any of it, also I was too young to care. Just about everyone who grows up in America has heard many things about God as they are growing up. I would consider my own children indoctrinated by my beliefs and my churches teachings, which I believe in,, because they grew up attending my church right from 2 weeks old in the nursery all the way through their adult lives. They went to Sunday school faithfully from age 3 to 18 every Sunday, Youth group, which they loved, every Friday night, and A Christian based scouting club every Wed. night . All at our church. Now, that's what I would consider being 'indoctrinated". So, what I had as a child, to me, was nothing.

In order for you to get married in the Catholic Church, you attended some sessions - they were called instructions - prior to your wedding, unless your Catholic church was completely out of the ordinary. That counts for something when one thinks of having been indoctrinated.

No. My mom was friends with the priest there and when she told him I needed a church to get married in, he obliged, for a fee of course.:eek:

And as for your last little comment, your Catholic church must REALLY have been out of the ordinary. Because if your "Catholic Christian" friends simply "used the church to "do what they needed to do" it was unlike any Catholic Church I've ever attended. And I have attended Catholic Churches all over the United States.

By the way, what in the world is a Catholic Christian?

When I said Catholic Christian, I meant a christian who attends a Catholic church, because there are Christians who attend many different denominations like Methodist, Baptist, etc.

[pattygreen 5]

You've often declared that without the Bible and a belief in God, man would have no moral compass. Here's a link (I know, I usually do not post links, but this one is some alternative reading for you to consider.)

Josephson Institute of Ethics: The Six Pillars of Character: Trustworthiness, Respect, Responsibility, Fairness, Caring, Citizenship

The six pillars of charachter given here are all taught in the bible. The bible was around long before this author came up with the ideas for his 6 pillars, but it was intersesting to read.

[pattygreen 5]

I believe the problem with fundamentalism is their belief that they're right and everybody else is wrong. You see this with fundamentalist Muslims as well as Christians and I would imagine extreme factions in other religions as well. They ALL believe they have the one true way. And the most disturbing thing is that they usually all want their respective countries or governments to run according to their fundamental beliefs. [end]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with believeing that your faith is the right one. If you didn't believe that, then you would be foolish to stay in it. I don't, and can't believe that there are 'many' ways to God, for if I did, I would be calling God a liar. He said that Jesus is the only way, and that without faith in his Son, we will be eternally lost.

As for wanting America to remain a Christian nation, you are right that I would like it to. We started out that way, and we should remain. I like the idea that our founding fathers set up freedom of religion here, though. Anyone can worship whatever God they choose, and live here. This is important because God does not want anyone to be 'forced' to love him. (I wouldn't either.) That is why he gave us each a choice.

I have said this before,

Just as this is an english speaking nation, and we should not change our street signs and everything else here to accomodate every form of language represented in this country, we are also a Christian nation, and should not change that to accomodate every form of religion represented here. Just as I would not go into Italy and expect everyone there to learn english and speak it instead of Italian, I would not go into a predominantly muslim country and expect everyone there to conform to Christianity. Therefore, noone of another religion should come to America and expect the people here to conform to their religion. I understand that there are people of many differing religions living here, but this is a Christian nation, with 82% of the people here claiming to be of the Christian faith. Our laws should not reflect the beliefs of Satan worshipers or Buddhism. They should reflect the laws of it's constituents, who are predominantly Christians.

[pattygreen 5]

I grew up with the fire and brimstone kind of Christianity. Later I went to Mass with my best friend. I studied with Seventh-Day Adventists, talked to Jehovah's Witnesses, Lutherans and Episcopalians, who seem to me to be much milder. I've also dealt with born-again Christians. None of them have done anything which would lead me to believe in their God. Saying a prayer "just in case" seems to me to leave room for doubt. If you can't be sure that the prayers are what did the trick, that too, would cause me to question.

Butting my head against a brick wall, waiting for answers and then thinking that whatever happens is God's will is not the way I choose to live my life. It still seems rather black and white to me. .

Debbie

Debbie, I can see that you might be confused as to which way to turn, due to the many different denominations of Christianity you have been exposed to. My advise to you would be to pick up the bible and start over. Pray and ask God to reveal Himself to you personally.

The things that happen in life are God's will, (in a sense), because if he doesn't intervene somehow, he has allowed them. But, he can, and does intervene when His children pray and ask Him to. This is the 'power' that God has given Christians that He speaks about in the bible. "The prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective." James 5:16 (Christians are considered 'righteous' before God because Jesus made us so. Not that we are not sinners, but that we are cleansed from our sins) Therefore, our prayers are 'powerful' and 'effective'. They DO something. They move God to intervene in the everyday experiences of life on this earth. So, when Hummingbird prayed the other day, God heard and He moved. I believe that. :eek:

[pattygreen 5]

I don't try to make anyone else believe or become a christian. I just know what I believe and I do pray.

Do you ever consider God's calling to his children to "go and tell others about Him"?

[BJean 16]

patty on prayers: "They move God to intervene in the everyday experiences of life on this earth. So, when Hummingbird prayed the other day, God heard and He moved. I believe that."

I really don't think it makes any sense to say on the one hand that God doesn't control the bad things that happen and on the other to say that he intervenes. I know your arguments, but I respectfully disagree.

I've known so many really good Christians who have faithfully followed His teachings and have prayed fervently for something that would be fair and just if He answered them. They've even employed the assistance of their church and other churches - they've had prayer groups, they've enlisted everyone they know and those people have asked everyone they know to pray for a righteous cause and yet there was no intervention. God just didn't see fit to answer all those fervent prayers. And what of the person across the street who needs the exact same thing to happen in their lives (healing of a loved one, for instance) and they don't pray and yet the sick person is healed.

And what of the person who prays to God that their team win a Gold Medal in the olymics... and the other team is praying for God to intervene and let them win? Well whichever team wins, their prayers were answered.

When a person has prayed for help in anything and the very thing happened that they prayed for, they believe that God intervened and answered their prayers.

When the opposite happens, the answer is that God has his own plan. He has a reason for refusing to intervene. Sorry, you just have to understand that God wanted that person to die for whatever reason He may have.

This is not in the form of a quesstion. I'm not asking you to debate this with me. I know your arguments. I am telling you that it makes absolutely no sense. You cannot justify everything that doesn't validate your religious beliefs and then fervently embrace the outcome as proof that prayer works when it appears that your prayers were answered.

I believe that prayer works for us because we repeat positive thoughts that cause US to get positive results. It is up to us to have goodness come into our lives. We shouldn't give God false credit and we shouldn't give Him false blame.

[Humming Bird 275]

Do you ever consider God's calling to his children to "go and tell others about Him"?

Yes, I do consider that. I do talk with my son and my grandson about GOD and Jesus. It is not my calling to teach other people. I am not educated in theology enough to be a strong teacher that way.

[pattygreen 5]

patty on prayers: "They move God to intervene in the everyday experiences of life on this earth. So, when Hummingbird prayed the other day, God heard and He moved. I believe that."

I really don't think it makes any sense to say on the one hand that God doesn't control the bad things that happen and on the other to say that he intervenes. I know your arguments, but I respectfully disagree.

I've known so many really good Christians who have faithfully followed His teachings and have prayed fervently for something that would be fair and just if He answered them. They've even employed the assistance of their church and other churches - they've had prayer groups, they've enlisted everyone they know and those people have asked everyone they know to pray for a righteous cause and yet there was no intervention. God just didn't see fit to answer all those fervent prayers. And what of the person across the street who needs the exact same thing to happen in their lives (healing of a loved one, for instance) and they don't pray and yet the sick person is healed.

Could it be that the answer those good christian's were looking for was not the answer God was willing to give? When our children ask for money to buy something, and we say no or wait, it may seem to them that we can't give them what they are asking us for, but in fact we can, it's just that we understand that to give them the money would mean harm for them in some way, so we don't give them what they ask for. God is like that,too.

As for the man next door who gets a healing and never asked for it; that is God's grace extended to unbelievers as well. The rain pours, and the sun shines on both the just and the unjust.

And what of the person who prays to God that their team win a Gold Medal in the olymics... and the other team is praying for God to intervene and let them win? Well whichever team wins, their prayers were answered.

When a person has prayed for help in anything and the very thing happened that they prayed for, they believe that God intervened and answered their prayers.

When the opposite happens, the answer is that God has his own plan. He has a reason for refusing to intervene. Sorry, you just have to understand that God wanted that person to die for whatever reason He may have.

This is not in the form of a quesstion. I'm not asking you to debate this with me. I know your arguments. I am telling you that it makes absolutely no sense. You cannot justify everything that doesn't validate your religious beliefs and then fervently embrace the outcome as proof that prayer works when it appears that your prayers were answered.

I believe that prayer works for us because we repeat positive thoughts that cause US to get positive results. It is up to us to have goodness come into our lives. We shouldn't give God false credit and we shouldn't give Him false blame.

(From everystudent.com)

So, Why Doesn't God Answer Everyone's Prayers?

It may be because they don't have a relationship with God. They may know that God exists, and they might even worship God from time to time. But those who never seem to have their prayers answered probably don't have a relationship with him. Further, they have never received from God complete forgiveness for their sin. What does that have to do with it you ask? Here is an explanation. "Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God. Your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear."

It's pretty natural to feel that separation from God. When people begin to ask God for something, what usually takes place? They begin with, "God, I really need your help with this problem..." And then there's a pause, followed by a restart... "I realize that I'm not a perfect person, that I actually have no right to ask you for this..." There's an awareness of personal sin and failure. And the person knows that it's not just them; that God is aware of it too. There's a feeling of, "Who am I kidding?" What they may not know is how they can receive God's forgiveness for all their sin. They might not know that they can come into a relationship with God so that God will hear them. This is the foundation for God answering your prayer.

You must first begin a relationship with God. Imagine some guy named Mike decides to ask the president of Princeton University (whom Mike doesn't even know) to co-sign a car loan for him. Mike would have zero chance of that happening. (We're assuming that the president of Princeton is not an idiot.) However, if that same president's daughter asked her dad to co-sign a car loan for her, it would be no problem. Relationship matters.

With God, when the person is actually a child of God, when the person belongs to God, he knows them and hears their prayers. Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me...my sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

When it comes to God then, do you really know him and does he know you? Do you have a relationship with him that warrants God answering your prayers? Or is God pretty distant, pretty much just a concept in your life?

[pattygreen 5]

This is just my opinion here, but I believe that God's answer to both teams would be, "It's a game of skill and fun and whoever's team plays and performs better will win the game. This is not an area where I need to intervene."

God does not need to give a 'yes' or an 'okay' to every prayer. He may say 'no', or 'wait' or 'let's see what the outcome of your actions will bring'.

In this case with the olympians, who trained longer? and who gave their all?, and who has stronger muscles?, etc.

This will determine the winner, not God.

I believe that God allows life to go on and if prayers from his children go up to him, he hears them and answers them. If unbelievers pray to God for salvation He answers their prayers as well.

[BJean 16]

patty: "Could it be that the answer those good christian's were looking for was not the answer God was willing to give? When our children ask for money to buy something, and we say no or wait, it may seem to them that we can't give them what they are asking us for, but in fact we can, it's just that we understand that to give them the money would mean harm for them in some way, so we don't give them what they ask for. God is like that,too.

"When it comes to God then, do you really know him and does he know you? Do you have a relationship with him that warrants God answering your prayers? Or is God pretty distant, pretty much just a concept in your life?

With God, when the person is actually a child of God, when the person belongs to God, he knows them and hears their prayers. Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me...my sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

"I believe that God allows life to go on and if prayers from his children go up to him, he hears them and answers them."

So if we are believers and pray to God for anything, salvation, healing, winning the gold, whatever, he hears us. But if we don't have the right kind of relationship with him, he doesn't listen or deliver? Except if we are asking for salvation, of course.

Honestly I understand everything you're saying. But it makes no sense. None whatever because you (or someone else here on earth) are the ones who are deciding whether or not God has answered your prayers or those of someone else. If you've determined that someone has a good relationship with God, then you'll agree that God's probably listened and whatever the outcome, it is God's will. But if you decide that someone doesn't have a good enough relationship with God, then that person shouldn't expect his prayers to be answered. Or perhaps even listened to.

The God you've created in your mind is not what the Bible promises. My God is within me. I don't have to justify the extent of my relationship to Him, myself or anyone else. I do not expect a heavenly being to pass judgement on me or my prayers for them to be worthwhile. The answers all come from me. Not an entity that some church lady conjured up for me.

[Devana 0]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with believeing that your faith is the right one. If you didn't believe that, then you would be foolish to stay in it. I don't, and can't believe that there are 'many' ways to God, for if I did, I would be calling God a liar. He said that Jesus is the only way, and that without faith in his Son, we will be eternally lost.

Patty, this is kind of what I mean by being in the front seats at the theatre, and please, I really do not intend any value judgement by that.

I know many Christians who are totally committed to their faith and yet still have an attitude of "One God and many paths", while remaining true to their faith.

[Devana 0]

I think a lot of this centres around whether or not one believes the bible is the one and only "word of God".

I see three things:

1.) the old testament

2.) the "story of Jesus"

3.) and the purported words of Jesus

That's a heck of a lot of stuff (and contradictions) to take on as a whole as the one and true way.

When I discuss the contradictions with my Christian friends they always come back with "what that passage really means is.."

It's like "God's word" is God's word unless it doesn't make sense, then He really meant something else.

[serenity55 15]

Debbie, I can see that you might be confused as to which way to turn, due to the many different denominations of Christianity you have been exposed to. My advise to you would be to pick up the bible and start over. Pray and ask God to reveal Himself to you personally.

The things that happen in life are God's will, (in a sense), because if he doesn't intervene somehow, he has allowed them. But, he can, and does intervene when His children pray and ask Him to. This is the 'power' that God has given Christians that He speaks about in the bible. "The prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective." James 5:16 (Christians are considered 'righteous' before God because Jesus made us so. Not that we are not sinners, but that we are cleansed from our sins) Therefore, our prayers are 'powerful' and 'effective'. They DO something. They move God to intervene in the everyday experiences of life on this earth. So, when Hummingbird prayed the other day, God heard and He moved. I believe that. :wink2:

No, Patty, I'm not confused. I just don't believe there is a God.

Debbie