The early founders of our Nation came to set up a government based on Christian principals. They yearned for a new world where they could establish a society based on biblical values and morals. Our founding Fathers recognized the fact that virtue is crucial to wise leadership. Character does matter. Voters often accept character flaws like marital infidelity and are told not to focus on a candidates "personal life" but to "concentrate on the man". Many Americans fail to realize that a man who will lie to his own wife and break his marriage vows will think nothing of lying to his constituents and breaking his campaign promises.

Whatever happened to America? How did we get from Godly leaders to greedy politicians? We've come from colonial christian education to pagan public schools. How did we get from the puritans' influence and the Great Awakening to secular humanism and a valuless society?

The Founding Fathers had ample evidence that unrestrained democracy led to anarchy. Having witnessed the chaos in France, "the religiously minded leaders and citizens" decided "to choose delegates who had a deep commitment to religious roots of the colonists who established this country". Those who attended the Constitutional convention in 1787 in Philadelphia were selected for their deep commitment to Puritan and Calvinistic doctrine as well as for other political considerations. Their goal was not to establish a democracy in which "Every man does that which is right in his own eyes". Instead, they formated a representative form of government based on divinely inspired law. The Constitution they wrote and the gov. they founded upon it verified that they never intended to establish a secular nation. Instead it was and still is "One Nation Under God." There is no doubt about it--America was established as a christian nation based on biblical principles. I have my opinions on what has happened to America. What are yours? If you want to discuss this with me, please post.

bjean: I cannot believe that a person who is a good person, one who strives to do good deeds throughout their life, but who has never been saved or Baptized, will go to hell.

Our eternal destination does not depend on our deeds. It depends on our Faith in Jesus alone. (baptism is a deed) Don't think that God is unjust by sending unbelievers away from him and believers are allowed to live with him. He is not unjust. The deeds we have done in the flesh will be dealt with. Those good things we have done will be rewarded and the wrong things we have done will be disciplined. They are not the determining factor as to whether God adopts us or not and allows us to live with him eternally. When we accept him as our Savior, He adopts us into his family. We can not be unadopted, unless we choose to be. Therefore, if we do wrong or if we do right, he rewards or disciplines his children accordingly. He doesn't kick them out of his house though. Would you do that to your child? If he behaved badly, you would disinherit him and cast him out of the family. No, he will be disciplined, but he will always be your child.

Unbelievers are not his children until they accept his gift of Salvation. They are his creation, but not his children. They can be if they choose to be. So, when he sends all the unbelievers to Hell, he is sending them away from his home to live with all the others who chose not to live with him. It's their choice.

I cannot believe that all of those millions of people who do not believe as I do, will go to hell.

Prove it. Since you cannot, then I chose to believe that when we die, we just die. What this all hinges on is there are those who believe and those who dont. It is impossible to even converse about this with you because you are wearing blinders and only seeing a narrow sliver of the world. Since there is no reality for you other than what you chose to believe there seems little point in trying to debate or even carry on a logical conversation.

It is not for me to prove . You need to disprove it. I don't believe you can. God says that the only 'proof' he will give you is his resurrection. He spent 3 days in hell and preached to all those who were there after he was killed on the cross and then he took those that were on the side of hell called paradise into Heaven with him when he ascended. (Paradise was a holding place for those who believed in the soon to come Messiah (Jesus)) He arose from the dead. There were many, many witnesses to this fact. They recorded it in books and letters and they were compiled together in the gospels of Christ. If we can believe the writings of past historians, we can believe the writings of the new testament eyewitnesses of Jesus. Faith is just that. Faith. The bible is a book compiled of 44 different books or letters that were written over many periods of time and in many different places and by many different people, yet when compiled all together make perfect uncontradictory sense. You can not understand the book of Isaiah without the book of Hebrews, etc. The book is truly a miracle of God, and unless you venture to read it, you will never see God's hand in it.

I would rather be blind to all the world has to offer me than to be blind to the reality of God. This life is but a breath compared to eternity which is an infinity long.

Edited June 19, 200917 yr by pattygreen

gingerbug: What this all hinges on is there are those who believe and those who dont.

True. But how I see it is this. I have nothing to lose here. If I am right, I spend an eternity with my Father in Heaven where it is very peaceful, loving and wonderful. I also spend my lifetime here in peace knowing that my home in Heaven is secure, and knowing that there is a God who loves me and provides for my every need and desire. If I am wrong. Oh well. I die and my body rots in the ground and I exist no more. none the wiser. At least I had a good life. One that had good fellowship with likeminded believers and one based on goodness toward mankind and love for others. Unbelievers, on the other hand, if they are right, they lived their lives the way they wanted to, and when it is over, they die and don't exist anymore. Alls well. But, if they are wrong? They spend an eternity separated from the one who created them, living in turmoil because they could have chosen something far, far, far, far better.

gingerbug: What this all hinges on is there are those who believe and those who dont.

True. But how I see it is this. I have nothing to lose here. If I am right, I spend an eternity with my Father in Heaven where it is very peaceful, loving and wonderful. I also spend my lifetime here in peace knowing that my home in Heaven is secure, and knowing that there is a God who loves me and provides for my every need and desire. If I am wrong. Oh well. I die and my body rots in the ground and I exist no more. none the wiser. At least I had a good life. One that had good fellowship with likeminded believers and one based on goodness toward mankind and love for others. Unbelievers, on the other hand, if they are right, they lived their lives the way they wanted to, and when it is over, they die and don't exist anymore. Alls well. But, if they are wrong? They spend an eternity separated from the one who created them, living in turmoil because they could have chosen something far, far, far, far better.

I cannot live a life based on fear of the unknowing. I chose to live a life of goodness because it is the right thing to do, not because I am afraid of what might happen if I don't. Furthermore, if I may be wrong, and I lived a 'good' life, isn't god forgiving? Wont I be judged on my actions? If not, it seems to me the whole play on 'believe or you will go to hell' bit is a gamble for churches to get you to put your money in the collection plate. Feeding on peoples fear of the unknown. I wont subscribe to a school of thought like that.

it seems to me the whole play on 'believe or you will go to hell' bit is a gamble for churches to get you to put your money in the collection plate.

Belief in, and having a relationship with, God doesn't require that put even one penny in any offering plate, nor have any affiliation with any church.

Just sayin'. :thumbup:

Even patty has said that organized religion is not the be all, end all. She has criticized it and has scripture to support her thoughts on it.

For me I am not blind to the fact that the certain churches have used their rules and guidelines to keep people tied to them and to perpetuate the church. They have a vested interest in wanting their participants to have large families, to eschew birth control, to forego having abotions for any reason. They require their parishioners to tithe a certain percentage of their income. They insist that their attendees use envelopes for their "donations" so they can keep track of who is and is not tithing. And the list goes on.

Ministers, priests, pastors always incorporate a certain amount of "sin" in their sermons. They heap on the guilt through reading certain scriptures. That guilt weighs heavily on their membership. It does a lot to help perpetuate the church. And the more fervent the membership, the more money they raise and the bigger the new additions can be and on and on.

Churches aren't all bad, I know that. But they are not all good either. And some of the bad that they have been heaping on their membership for the last few years has been horrible. And I do believe that it has done a lot to divide this country.

I believe it is in a way, analogous to the news media. If the TV news shows spend too much time on people doing good things instead of being focused on the horrible crimes of humanity everyday, people stop watching. People are intrigued by and they expect to see other people committing crimes everyday.

The same with churches. If a minister is always upbeat and complimentary and sweetness and light, people drift away. When a minister incorporates talk of sin and betrayal and the weaknesses of people, it's what their congregation expects to be told. They believe that humanity is sinful and bad and it brings them back to the church more often. The people who seem to have the most guilt are some of the ones who are involved the most.

Now don't get me wrong. Like I said above, churches can do a lot of good. Some of my family are liftime missionaries so I see it up close and personal. But I've also seen the dirty underbelly and what motivates and runs churches. I do not like the guilt that they peddle one bit. And I have no doubt that some of the people who were writing some of the gospels and passages in the Bible were similarly motivated.

Blaspheme? Or simple honesty? It's up to each of us to decide, isn't it.

Bjean - I concur.

Plain - tell that to my catholic friends whom, after years of being members, chose to leave the church because of how much they were hounded for money. Church 'big cheeses' would come to their houses asking for more and more.

I am going to stick with my secular humanist freethinking views. I know, I am a clown loving sex fiend heathen. LOL.

Edited June 19, 200917 yr by gingerbug

Plain - tell that to my catholic friends whom, after years of being members, chose to leave the church because of how much they were hounded for money. Church 'big cheeses' would come to their houses asking for more and more.

Ginge, I'd tell them the same thing. They left the church, but did they leave their personal realtionship with God? That was my point....if a church is impeding your walk with God, get the hell out of Dodge (pun intended).

I am going to stick with my secular humanist freethinking views. I know, I am a clown loving sex fiend heathen. LOL.

I totally support your right to be that woman, lol...

gingerbug: What this all hinges on is there are those who believe and those who dont.

I cannot live a life based on fear of the unknowing. I chose to live a life of goodness because it is the right thing to do, not because I am afraid of what might happen if I don't.

It is good to live a life of goodness. I agree with that wholeheartedly. But, like I said, God has not based how good or bad we have been as his determining factor for our adoption as his children. For all children are both good and bad. So, being afraid of what might happen if you aren't good, as a reason for rejecting him, doesn't make sense. What makes more sense is being afraid of what might happen if you don't ask him for Salvation. Your deeds will be judged on Judgment day. They have nothing to do with where you will spend your eternity. Your Faith in Jesus as your Savior has everything to do with it.

Furthermore, if I may be wrong, and I lived a 'good' life, isn't god forgiving?

God is forgiving. If, in this life,(and the key here is in this life) we ask God to forgive us for anything he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins. Once our life ends, your time for making your decision is over. God gives us this lifetime to make that decision. That's why we are here. Ever have that question come up in your mind? "Why am I here?", "What's life all about anyway?" Well that's the answer. To make a choice on whom you will serve. Be it God or the devil. The scripture teaches that those who don't choose God have (unknowingly) chosen the devil. For there are only 2 eternal homes. God is in one, and the devil and all unbelievers reside in the other. Unbelievers aren't actually choosing the devil, but they end up where he ends up because that's the only other place outside of Heaven where God can separate them from him.

Wont I be judged on my actions? No. But you will be disciplined for them. To be 'judged' is to make a final decision or verdict as to where you will go. Just like when the court room judges the criminal. he decides if he will go to jail or not. If not, it seems to me the whole play on 'believe or you will go to hell' bit is a gamble for churches to get you to put your money in the collection plate.

No. When someone says 'believe' or you will go to hell, they are right. When they say 'be good' or you will go to hell, they are wrong.

Feeding on peoples fear of the unknown. I wont subscribe to a school of thought like that.

You don't have to. If a church makes you fearful by what they tell you, don't ascribe to them. For that matter, don't attend church at all if you don't want to. It is not only those who go to church who are saved. Jesus said "do not forsake the assembling of one another together." He meant for all believers to meet together on a regular basis. (He never specified how often, some feel it should be once a week) The first believers met in houses. Then as their group got bigger, they moved to buildings. Today 'Church' means a place of worship. In the bible the word 'church' means all the believers in Christ. We are God's church.

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Patty, every reply to comments is based on scripture, the bible, or what jesus/god thinks/thought. Do you see how hard it is for myself and others to even relate to you? When you are discussing something and the person you are talking to does not believe that faith/religion/the bible is based in logic, you cant approach the argument as if it does. The other person is not going to be able to relate to you and, many times, they are going to be even more turned off to your faith. When your views leave no room for shades or grey, you dont open yourself up to possibility. You are so utterly convinced in the validity of your faith that you dont hear other peoples 'reason'. I am ending my participation in this thread.

Even patty has said that organized religion is not the be all, end all. She has criticized it and has scripture to support her thoughts on it.

For me I am not blind to the fact that the certain churches have used their rules and guidelines to keep people tied to them and to perpetuate the church.

some, yes.

They have a vested interest in wanting their participants to have large families, to eschew birth control, to forego having abotions for any reason.

This I disagree with. What's their interest?

They require their parishioners to tithe a certain percentage of their income.

God was the one who gave that 10% ruling. He felt that if each person that got together gave just 1/10 of their earnings to the synagog, then the synagog could be cared for financially. The churches kept it that way. Churches require upkeep. Lights, heat, AC, etc. They also give to missionaries. The pastor or reverend who preaches needs his salary as well. Some churches have secretaries. Without the tithe, how will the church stay running? The parishoners of the churches understand that there are expenses that go along with having a place to meet together to fellowship and worship and study, so they are more than happy to contribute to its upkeep. It is not required of anyone. The Lord says that he loves a 'cheerful' giver. So if you can't support the place where you attend cheerfully, then he'd rather you didn't give at all.

They insist that their attendees use envelopes for their "donations" so they can keep track of who is and is not tithing. And the list goes on.

The church I attend has envelopes there for your convenience. It is also a record of my giving that is returned to me at the end of each year for tax purposes. It is for my benefit, not theirs.

Ministers, priests, pastors always incorporate a certain amount of "sin" in their sermons. They heap on the guilt through reading certain scriptures. That guilt weighs heavily on their membership. It does a lot to help perpetuate the church. And the more fervent the membership, the more money they raise and the bigger the new additions can be and on and on.

Without talking about mans sinful nature, people will go through their lives not understanding their absolute need for the Savior, and thus turning to Him in repentance. If they are feeling guilty, then obviously they need to fix something in prayer before God. That's a good thing.

Churches aren't all bad, I know that. But they are not all good either. And some of the bad that they have been heaping on their membership for the last few years has been horrible. And I do believe that it has done a lot to divide this country.

I believe it is in a way, analogous to the news media. If the TV news shows spend too much time on people doing good things instead of being focused on the horrible crimes of humanity everyday, people stop watching. People are intrigued by and they expect to see other people committing crimes everyday.

This I agree with you on.

The same with churches. If a minister is always upbeat and complimentary and sweetness and light, people drift away. When a minister incorporates talk of sin and betrayal and the weaknesses of people, it's what their congregation expects to be told. They believe that humanity is sinful and bad and it brings them back to the church more often. The people who seem to have the most guilt are some of the ones who are involved the most.

Why do you feel that talking about sin is not good? Sin exists. There is more talk about mans sinfulness in the bible than anything else it seems. Why? Because God wants you to recognize that it (sin) will keep you from an eternal home with him. The most horrible sin is the sin of unbelief. God is Holy and can not be in the presence of sin.

Now don't get me wrong. Like I said above, churches can do a lot of good. Some of my family are liftime missionaries so I see it up close and personal. But I've also seen the dirty underbelly and what motivates and runs churches. I do not like the guilt that they peddle one bit. And I have no doubt that some of the people who were writing some of the gospels and passages in the Bible were similarly motivated.

I disagree here. The people who wrote the gospels were eye witnesses to jesus' life, death and resurrection. God did not allow there account of it to be tarnished by anyone.

Blaspheme? Or simple honesty? It's up to each of us to decide, isn't it.

.............................................................

gingerbug: What this all hinges on is there are those who believe and those who dont.

True. But how I see it is this. I have nothing to lose here. If I am right, I spend an eternity with my Father in Heaven where it is very peaceful, loving and wonderful. I also spend my lifetime here in peace knowing that my home in Heaven is secure, and knowing that there is a God who loves me and provides for my every need and desire. If I am wrong. Oh well. I die and my body rots in the ground and I exist no more. none the wiser. At least I had a good life. One that had good fellowship with likeminded believers and one based on goodness toward mankind and love for others. Unbelievers, on the other hand, if they are right, they lived their lives the way they wanted to, and when it is over, they die and don't exist anymore. Alls well. But, if they are wrong? They spend an eternity separated from the one who created them, living in turmoil because they could have chosen something far, far, far, far better.

You left out another whole possibility. The God that greats you may be slightly different than what you expect, kinda like the one that Bjean describes. He may see your rigidness and judgmental ways to not be in the spirit he intended for his followers. Or you could be way off base and the God in heaven may be more like Allah in Islam or Yahweh in Judaism (which whether you believe it or not are the same God that you refer to as God). Or you may find a supreme being that is really the embodiment of some aspect of all the religions that man has devised. You have faith that you are right and that is good for you, I’m happy for you that you have that. I for one will not say you are wrong, but for me, I have to have an open mind that any and all of the possibilities are there and I have not seen enough evidence that any one of them is more likely than any other.

The people who wrote the gospels were eye witnesses to jesus' life, death and resurrection. God did not allow there account of it to be tarnished by anyone.

This is one of those things that makes the skeptics doubt so much that the bible is the word of God and not the ramblings of men. It’s interesting that Islam uses a similar approach. In Islam, believers are taught that Muhammad transcribed the words of Allah into the Quran with the help of the angel Gabriel. To further the belief that he did not insert his own thoughts into the writings, it is believed that Muhammad was illiterate and therefore incapable of writing anything other than what the angel prescribed. Another interpretation is that Muhammad recited (and committed to memory) all of the versus that Gabriel gave him and that literate followers of Muhammad later wrote them into the Quran exactly as Muhammad said them so as not to put their own words in.

gingerbug: What this all hinges on is there are those who believe and those who dont.

You left out another whole possibility. The God that greats you may be slightly different than what you expect, kinda like the one that Bjean describes. He may see your rigidness and judgmental ways to not be in the spirit he intended for his followers. Or you could be way off base and the God in heaven may be more like Allah in Islam or Yahweh in Judaism (which whether you believe it or not are the same God that you refer to as God). Or you may find a supreme being that is really the embodiment of some aspect of all the religions that man has devised. You have faith that you are right and that is good for you, I’m happy for you that you have that. I for one will not say you are wrong, but for me, I have to have an open mind that any and all of the possibilities are there and I have not seen enough evidence that any one of them is more likely than any other.

Fair enough.

I pray that all will go well for you. You seem like an extra special person and I hope that someday, the true God who created you, whoever it may be, will reveal himself to you. You will be in my prayers. (even if you don't believe they are going to do any good. :tongue:)lol

This is one of those things that makes the skeptics doubt so much that the bible is the word of God and not the ramblings of men. It’s interesting that Islam uses a similar approach. In Islam, believers are taught that Muhammad transcribed the words of Allah into the Quran with the help of the angel Gabriel. To further the belief that he did not insert his own thoughts into the writings, it is believed that Muhammad was illiterate and therefore incapable of writing anything other than what the angel prescribed. Another interpretation is that Muhammad recited (and committed to memory) all of the versus that Gabriel gave him and that literate followers of Muhammad later wrote them into the Quran exactly as Muhammad said them so as not to put their own words in.

I have read some of the Quaran and have come to the conclusion that Jesus and Allah could not be the same beings. Their personalities and teachings contradict one another IMO.