The early founders of our Nation came to set up a government based on Christian principals. They yearned for a new world where they could establish a society based on biblical values and morals. Our founding Fathers recognized the fact that virtue is crucial to wise leadership. Character does matter. Voters often accept character flaws like marital infidelity and are told not to focus on a candidates "personal life" but to "concentrate on the man". Many Americans fail to realize that a man who will lie to his own wife and break his marriage vows will think nothing of lying to his constituents and breaking his campaign promises.

Whatever happened to America? How did we get from Godly leaders to greedy politicians? We've come from colonial christian education to pagan public schools. How did we get from the puritans' influence and the Great Awakening to secular humanism and a valuless society?

The Founding Fathers had ample evidence that unrestrained democracy led to anarchy. Having witnessed the chaos in France, "the religiously minded leaders and citizens" decided "to choose delegates who had a deep commitment to religious roots of the colonists who established this country". Those who attended the Constitutional convention in 1787 in Philadelphia were selected for their deep commitment to Puritan and Calvinistic doctrine as well as for other political considerations. Their goal was not to establish a democracy in which "Every man does that which is right in his own eyes". Instead, they formated a representative form of government based on divinely inspired law. The Constitution they wrote and the gov. they founded upon it verified that they never intended to establish a secular nation. Instead it was and still is "One Nation Under God." There is no doubt about it--America was established as a christian nation based on biblical principles. I have my opinions on what has happened to America. What are yours? If you want to discuss this with me, please post.

In the book of Genesis God clearly states concerning Israel in chapter 12, "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples will be blessed through you." There are other scriptures that are similar. I believe it would be best for everyone to support Israel.

Are you just making a random comment patty or are you misunderstanding my post and trying to correct me?

Are you just making a random comment patty or are you misunderstanding my post and trying to correct me?

a random comment concerning Israel.

In the book of Genesis God clearly states concerning Israel in chapter 12, "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples will be blessed through you." There are other scriptures that are similar. I believe it would be best for everyone to support Israel.

So we should support them because the bible says so? Even while they don’t make the best efforts towards peace with the Palestinians and while they continue to expand illegal settlements into the West Bank? It seems to me that our Foreign Policy should be based more on what is right and just, not a scripture form the bible.

Yes, we should support them because they are God's chosen people. Whenever anyone messes with my kids, they better watch out! I protect them and keep them from harm and they get my attention when they call on me to help them.

Also, what man deems right and just, God may not.

Sorry Patty, you know that answer is not enough for me. For me, there has to be legitimacy in what we do beyond what is said in the Bible.

Fair enough. But not for me. I stand on the word of God and make all of my decisions by it. I suppose we can just wait and see what happens when we decide not to stand by Israel any longer.

I’m sure that on that day we all just be smitten from above right where we are standing

j/k:wink2:

And the ones who are "born again" will rise up and leave the rest of us behind to be smitten, er smoted, er smited. :thumbdown:

And the ones who are "born again" will rise up and leave the rest of us behind to be smitten, er smoted, er smited. :thumbdown:

Uh....there is some truth to that.

And the ones who are "born again" will rise up and leave the rest of us behind to be smitten, er smoted, er smited. :thumbdown:

I thought you said you were a believer? Therefore, you too will rise up.

I can remember when stores were closed on Sundays. Today noone wants laws forbidding them to do anything - except to preach the gospel in public places. When 75 dedicated teens from a baptist church in Albuquerque, NM went to Los Angeles on a mission to witness for Christ and to sing and testify, they met with resistance at every turn. They went to UCLA Medical Center to perform for the dying children there and when they began to sing, the director of the center told them to leave because they had mentioned the name of Jesus. Then they went to the mall to pass out Christian literature and invite people to church. They weren't buttonholing shoppers or forcing their views on anyone, yet a security guard asked them to leave the premises. The way America is treating Christians today is the way Hitler treated the Jews in the 1930's. Remember, before holocaust and genocide and physical persecution always comes slander, scandal, public ridicule, and abuse. You don't have to go far to find people who think, because of the image being portrayed by the media, that fundamentalist evangelicals are not only fanatics but dangerous to society. Liberals always think that Christians are going to spoil all their fun or limit their freedoms. History, however, reveals just the opposite. The fact that Christianity has had a positive effect on America cannot be doubted. Our founding fathers believed that only a nation that trusted in God could survive as a democracy. The ideals of life, liberty and happiness were perceived as resting on the premise that "all men were created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." Belief in God was the glue that held society together. Today, the liberal elite want to keep 'religion' in its proper place - inside the church. Removing God from the public arena has been detrimental to America. This is why I feel that the decline in morals in this country have fallen sharply.

I don't know what to make of your rant about the young people who went on a tour to sing and testify and who were rebuffed and required to leave various premises.

At first glance, I wonder just how well-behaved and peaceful they actually were.

Neither of the places you mentioned are public places. They are privately owned businesses. If in either case, the kids were deemed to be disrupting shoppers or children in various stages of healing from illness, it is understandable that the persons in charge would want to protect their customers and patients.

You will never convince me that the hospital administrator made them leave because they said the name Jesus. Now if they were screaming it at the top of their lungs, then he could have been opposed to the tone in which they used His name.

If that is not the case, I'm afraid I don't understand the opposition to some kids gathering to quietly sing and pass out literature.

This sounds to me however, like some propaganda that is circulated to enrage the flock and influence them to go about posting rants and talking about how awful people who aren't Christian are.

Liberals are Christians too. Talk about buttonholing people!

Liberals think the religious right wing are wanting to "spoil all their fun" and "limit their freedoms"? That is incredibly offensive, not only to liberals but also to mainstream Christians everywhere.

Frankly this kind of bigoted and biased negative rant against anyone who is not right wing reeks of the same kind of propaganda and brainwashing that Hitler used AGAINST Jews.

They went to UCLA Medical Center to perform for the dying children there and when they began to sing, the director of the center told them to leave because they had mentioned the name of Jesus.

Liberals always think that Christians are going to spoil all their fun or limit their freedoms.

I don't understand.........Do Liberals always think this? What fun are they having that you think that they think might be spoiled? Are Liberals and Christians mutually exclusive?

As I mentioned on a previous thread, I spent quite a long time in the hospital with my son. Any group that came in to see the patients without prior arrangement were asked to leave. I didn't see any Christian groups asked to leave, but I did see a group of highschool kids who had made toys for the kids asked to leave and call ahead to make arrangements to come in.

I don't know what to make of your rant about the young people who went on a tour to sing and testify and who were rebuffed and required to leave various premises.

my point is that liberals want christianity taken out of the public arena. They seem to want everything to do with christianity hushed. In general, liberal thinking tends to lean toward an anything goes mentality. (I'm talking about morals here, acts that God would deem sinful)

At first glance, I wonder just how well-behaved and peaceful they actually were.

leave it to you to deem that they 'had to be' disruptive.

Neither of the places you mentioned are public places.

Hospitals and malls are places where the public gathers.

They are privately owned businesses. If in either case, the kids were deemed to be disrupting shoppers or children in various stages of healing from illness, it is understandable that the persons in charge would want to protect their customers and patients.

You will never convince me that the hospital administrator made them leave because they said the name Jesus. Now if they were screaming it at the top of their lungs, then he could have been opposed to the tone in which they used His name.

If that is not the case, I'm afraid I don't understand the opposition to some kids gathering to quietly sing and pass out literature.

Believe me, people who don't believe in God get angry or upset when they hear anything that might lead them to feel conviction. I mean, if something is said or sung that may cause them to reflect on their own need for a Savior, they can feel that way, because that's what the Holy Spirit does to people to draw them to him. He shows them their sinfulness and their need for Jesus. When this happens, and the individual doesn't want to acknowledge God, they can get offensive.

This sounds to me however, like some propaganda that is circulated to enrage the flock and influence them to go about posting rants and talking about how awful people who aren't Christian are.

No propaganda. I read about it in a book, and that was written 10 years ago. AND, I wasn't talking about how awful people who aren't christians are. My point in telling the story was to show how christians are wanted to be quieted in America today. (BTW, it's the nonchristians who do the christian bashing, not the other way around. Christians are getting alot of flack these days for standing up for righteousness.)

Liberals are Christians too.

Liberals (not all), in general, take a stand on gay marriages and abortion. This contradicts what being a Christian is all about, which is trusting God to tell us what is right and wrong. Therefore, I tend to believe that many (not all) liberals are Christians in name only.

Talk about buttonholing people!

Liberals think the religious right wing are wanting to "spoil all their fun" and "limit their freedoms"? That is incredibly offensive, not only to liberals but also to mainstream Christians everywhere.

IMO, Liberals tend to want to do what they want to do, dispite what God has to say about it. The only things that the 'religious right wing' want to do is put a stop to laws that endorse sin. What's wrong with wanting to enforce righteousness and goodness? Name one religious right winged issue that upsets a liberal. It will usually have to do with something that God deems sinful. Let's just take the Gov. spending taxpayer money on stimulus or medical care for all. God says that those who don't work don't eat. He's all for free enterprise. Let's take gay marriage. God says it is wrong. Let's take the issue of abortion. Well, we know what he says about that.

Frankly this kind of bigoted and biased negative rant against anyone who is not right wing reeks of the same kind of propaganda and brainwashing that Hitler used AGAINST Jews.

Kind of like what you said about christians who kill abortion doctors? Only you lumped us all together. "all them Christian, bigoted, murdering, haters"

Hitler is like liberals in a sense. Liberals want to make christians seem like the bad guys. (Hitler made it seem like the Jews were the bad guys) Christians get in the way of liberals who want to advance their agenda. (Jews got in Hitlers way of advancing his agenda)

When in fact, the christians only want to instill morals and values along with our freedoms and rights.