The early founders of our Nation came to set up a government based on Christian principals. They yearned for a new world where they could establish a society based on biblical values and morals. Our founding Fathers recognized the fact that virtue is crucial to wise leadership. Character does matter. Voters often accept character flaws like marital infidelity and are told not to focus on a candidates "personal life" but to "concentrate on the man". Many Americans fail to realize that a man who will lie to his own wife and break his marriage vows will think nothing of lying to his constituents and breaking his campaign promises.

Whatever happened to America? How did we get from Godly leaders to greedy politicians? We've come from colonial christian education to pagan public schools. How did we get from the puritans' influence and the Great Awakening to secular humanism and a valuless society?

The Founding Fathers had ample evidence that unrestrained democracy led to anarchy. Having witnessed the chaos in France, "the religiously minded leaders and citizens" decided "to choose delegates who had a deep commitment to religious roots of the colonists who established this country". Those who attended the Constitutional convention in 1787 in Philadelphia were selected for their deep commitment to Puritan and Calvinistic doctrine as well as for other political considerations. Their goal was not to establish a democracy in which "Every man does that which is right in his own eyes". Instead, they formated a representative form of government based on divinely inspired law. The Constitution they wrote and the gov. they founded upon it verified that they never intended to establish a secular nation. Instead it was and still is "One Nation Under God." There is no doubt about it--America was established as a christian nation based on biblical principles. I have my opinions on what has happened to America. What are yours? If you want to discuss this with me, please post.

Oh, come on now. I was trying to keep it light. And I was specifically speaking of schools.

I suspect that all the kids, during times of quiet reflection and prayer, would be thinking the same things - homework, clowns, and sex. Well, maybe not the homework so just the clowns and sex. Wait, maybe clowns having sex? I can feel my morality draining right out of me. Must.flog.self.

I suspect that all the kids, during times of quiet reflection and prayer, would be thinking the same things - homework, clowns, and sex. Well, maybe not the homework so just the clowns and sex. Wait, maybe clowns having sex? I can feel my morality draining right out of me. Must.flog.self.

Full disclosure: I just listed the things that I personally used to think of during school.

As for the rest of your statement, I would just correct you and say that YOU are accountable to God. Since I don’t believe as you do, I am accountable to own belief system{

The bible teaches that ALL will stand before him and be accountable to him for their deeds, whether good or bad, even if you don't believe in him. (I understand that you don't believe in him, and therefore, you wouldn't believe what the bible says, but even so, just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it not true.)

Our universe was created by a random act of nature. It is beautiful and should be cherished but there is not a man or god up in the clouds who created it for us.

Our universe is far too complex for any 'random act of nature' to have brought it into being.

Scientist’s and non-believers puzzle everyday over the millions of ‘coincidences’, ‘mutations’, and unlikely accidents that they imagine happened to create the universe. But too many of us miss the obvious, that these were not random acts of nature, but rather God’s carefully planned and executed steps toward the creation of his children.

I do not agree with you that we were a Christian Nation. I will grant you that there were (and are) a lot of Christian Politicians, but that is not the same thing. To say we were a Christian Nation would imply that it was our state sponsored religion. The Islamic Republic of Iran is a Moslem country, Israel is a Jewish country, we are not a Christian country because we have chosen not to pick a specific religion as our state religion.

It is certainly ok for you to WANT to make God a part of our government, this is a democracy so you can try. But you can’t just want it, for it to happen you need to change the politicians, the laws, and the minds of a lot of people. I take comfort in knowing that even most religious people don’t want that so good luck in that effort.

Why is Israel a Jewish nation? Because mostly Jewish people live there. Do you think there are any non jewish people there? Yes, there are. Why is Iran a Moslem nation? Because mostly Moslems live there. Could there be any non Moslems there? Yes, there are.

Why is America a Christian nation? Could it be because mostly Christian people live there? (92%) Are there any non christians there? Yes, there are. (8%)

We have picked a specific religion in America. It's already been done. Back when this nation was formed. It's Christianity. The difference between our nation and others who have their own religion, is that our Constitution allows any person to practice any faith here, and other countries don't allow it there. But Christianity is the predominate religion of America. (Just ask any foreigner)

Ok, you’ve said this before (that you are not a fan of religious institutions). Let’s just say that your dream came true and you were able have God in our laws and Government. This would mean that you could abolish abortion, have prayer in schools, and all the other stuff you want. Since you don’t care for “religions” who would mandate the ideology? Surely you must understand that even in a group of Christians your views are not exactly the same as everyone else’s. Who would decide? Don’t you see that is precisely why religion doesn’t belong in government?

All christian denominations have the same basic views. (Believing in Christ Jesus as the Savior, God the Father and the Holy Spirit, the bible as its guidebook, etc) Where these denominations differ is in their practices.(Can we dance?; should infants be baptised?; Can women talk in church?; etc.) I call them 'gray' areas. (Not at all that important in the grand scheme of things) These differences in christian denominations are what causes splits between the christian people and causes them to attend different places of worship. Their ALL christian churches, so the different writing over the door of their building doesn't make them any better than another. Therefore, since they all follow the bible as God's laws and guidebook for mankind, that should be the governing rule.

(I'd also like to add that the bible tells us that in the end time, it will be the governing rule, so even if it doesn't happen next week or in ten years or even in my lifetime, it will eventually be the way of the whole world, not just for America)

Jesus is Lord, A Worshipping Christian Family

The fact that Israel and other middle eastern countries are nations who recognize one particular religion is why there are so many people are constantly fighting and at war.

Don't think that can happen here. We already have right wing extremist evangelical terrorists. One day we may experience hand to hand combat if we allow religion to be a ruling factor in our government as other nations do.

Oh I know patty, you say that anyone who commits murder is crazy. And on one particular level I agree. Anyone who believes that their way is the only way could be considered crazy by those who do not share that belief.

So if we separate church and state, the crazies don't have a leg to stand on when they murder people who do not agree with their religious beliefs. We can prosecute them because the law of the land is on the side of peace and tolerance and freedom of religion. We don't have to go to war to keep the religious crazies in check.

Hello kartman.

The fact that Israel and other middle eastern countries are nations who recognize one particular religion is why there are so many people are constantly fighting and at war.

Don't think that can happen here. We already have right wing extremist evangelical terrorists.

We also had a craigs list killer, and he didn't hold to any religion at all. So what?

One day we may experience hand to hand combat if we allow religion to be a ruling factor in our government as other nations do.

Oh brother!

Oh I know patty, you say that anyone who commits murder is crazy. And on one particular level I agree. Anyone who believes that their way is the only way could be considered crazy by those who do not share that belief.

Yeah, I think all the atheists out there who feel that there way is the only way are crazy.:blushing:

Only you would feel that christians who feel that there way is the only way are crazy. Allow me to let you in on something. Everyone who has a faith in something believes that what they believe in is the right faith, or they wouldn't believe it.

So if we separate church and state, the crazies don't have a leg to stand on when they murder people who do not agree with their religious beliefs. We can prosecute them because the law of the land is on the side of peace and tolerance and freedom of religion. We don't have to go to war to keep the religious crazies in check.

You have it backwards bjean. In the end, it's the unbelievers in Jesus who do the murdering of the Christians, because the christians try to keep 'sin' from getting out of control and the unbelievers feel that if they get rid of the christians and their stand on righteousness, then they can live any way they choose. We see it starting already with the homosexual movement who claims that those 'intollerent, hateful christians" are keeping them from their so called 'rights', and the pro choice movement who feel that these christian pro life people are keeping them from their 'right' to murder their babies. Even so all we are doing is keeping what God calls sin from becoming acceptable and from becoming law in this country. Why all the hate towards christians whose only goals are keeping morality alive and well? What's wrong with goodness?

Hello kartman.

See my comments above in bold.

People murder people all the time and most every time it has nothing at all to do with religion. Your insistance that us 'religious' people who are strong in our faiths are 'crazy, intollerant, bigots and haters' is getting old. It's just as insane for me to say, "all the atheists out there are deranged." Just a short while ago, some guy killed a bunch of people in a McDonald's near here. He was an athiest, and admitted he had no belief in God. So, am I to believe that all the athiests out there are set on bringing a rifle wherever they go, simply because he did? Get over it. Your stand on christians and their motives hold no water. One nut doesn't make a whole group corrupt. It just gives liberals like you the opportunity to lay the blame for every nuts actions on ALL christians and gives you just another reason to get rid of us. Guess what? We're not going anywhere. America has 92% of its occupants as believers in God. They may not all be as vocal as I am about what they believe, but it's in their hearts.

Why is Israel a Jewish nation? Because mostly Jewish people live there. Do you think there are any non jewish people there? Yes, there are. Why is Iran a Moslem nation? Because mostly Moslems live there. Could there be any non Moslems there? Yes, there are.

Why is America a Christian nation? Could it be because mostly Christian people live there? (92%) Are there any non christians there? Yes, there are. (8%)

We have picked a specific religion in America. It's already been done. Back when this nation was formed. It's Christianity. The difference between our nation and others who have their own religion, is that our Constitution allows any person to practice any faith here, and other countries don't allow it there. But Christianity is the predominate religion of America. (Just ask any foreigner)

Seriously Patty, do you even look or do just a tiny bit of research before you post? This is probably the lamest rebuttal you’ve made so far. Israel is a Jewish state because they call themselves that, Netanyahu just demanded the Palestinians refer to them as a “Jewish State” and the Star of David is on their flag. Israel does not have a constitution so it is not determined by that. It is not determined by the number of Jews in the country. Iran is officially called the “Islamic Republic of Iran”. Nowhere does our constitution say that we are a Christian nation, nor do we refer to ourselves as the Christian United States of America.

patty: "We also had a craigs list killer, and he didn't hold to any religion at all. So what?"

Are you under the impression that I said that all killers are right wing nut jobs?

patty: "Everyone who has a faith in something believes that what they believe in is the right faith, or they wouldn't believe it."

Of course that's true. But the believers in most Christian doctrines are tolerant of other faiths. They do not think that the people who believe differently than they do are going to be banned from heaven.

patty: "What's wrong with goodness?"

I think that's what I've been trying to ask you. I'm not sure that you and I share the same definition of "goodness."

People murder all the time in the United States and most are crimes of passion. They are usually murders within families and friendships or at least murders of acquaintances. What I was talking about is the negativism that is practiced by the extreme right wing in this country and the fact that they become so outraged and angry that they are driven to commit murder against others who do not share their religious and political beliefs. They do not have to know someone to want to murder them. The murderous intent is within themselves. For instance, they are so anti-choice and they are so angry that they can justify in their own minds, the murder of someone who would provide abortions to women.

You said that you do not agree with the man who killed Dr. Tiller and in fact, you said that you think he is crazy. But when you rant and rave about abortion being murder, you sound just like someone who could justify doing away with another human being because as far as you are concerned they are going against God's will.

There's a whole lot of negative-speak going on today everywhere in America. I find it scary and disturbing and I find the attitude and tone of your posts to be negative and disturbing. It's seems to be a dichotomy - on the one hand you're preaching the Bible and speaking of God. On the other hand you're saying things like: "We see it starting already with the homosexual movement who claims that those 'intollerent, hateful christians" are keeping them from their so called 'rights', and the pro choice movement who feel that these christian pro life people are keeping them from their 'right' to murder their babies."

You are fully allowed to rant all you want about your beliefs. I am supposed to be allowed to do the same. The fact that we completely disagree is unfortunate, but it doesn't give one of us the right to post and the other not. And it doesn't mean that one of us is totally right and the other totally wrong. We're venting, and people will either agree or disagree. We ought to try to keep it impersonal. I will if you will, okay?

You are fully allowed to rant all you want about your beliefs. I am supposed to be allowed to do the same. The fact that we completely disagree is unfortunate, but it doesn't give one of us the right to post and the other not. And it doesn't mean that one of us is totally right and the other totally wrong. We're venting, and people will either agree or disagree. We ought to try to keep it impersonal. I will if you will, okay?

*applauds*

patty: "We also had a craigs list killer, and he didn't hold to any religion at all. So what?"

Are you under the impression that I said that all killers are right wing nut jobs?

No, just that all christians are crazy haters like the abortion doctor killer.

patty: "Everyone who has a faith in something believes that what they believe in is the right faith, or they wouldn't believe it."

Of course that's true. But the believers in most Christian doctrines are tolerant of other faiths. They do not think that the people who believe differently than they do are going to be banned from heaven.

They may be tolerant of other faiths, but they don't believe they are going to heaven. And if they are christians and have read the bible, then they would know that. The only way to get into Heaven, as far as God is concerned, is to have a faith in his Son, Jesus. Let me clear something up about myself. I am tollerant of other peoples beliefs. Every person has a free will to choose to believe anything that they want. I would not stand in someones way of belief. If they want to worship Satan himself, they have that right. Just because I state my beliefs here very strongly, doesn't mean I am not tollerant of anyone elses. ("Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Acts 16:31) It doesn't say Buddah or Allah or Nature there. It says Jesus. I can list a hundred more scriptures that teach that Jesus is the ONLY way, but I don't want to bore you.

patty: "What's wrong with goodness?"

I think that's what I've been trying to ask you. I'm not sure that you and I share the same definition of "goodness."

My definition lines up with God's. It's the opposite of the word 'sin'. Goodness is not sinning.

People murder all the time in the United States and most are crimes of passion. They are usually murders within families and friendships or at least murders of acquaintances.What I was talking about was the extreme right winged in this country and the fact that they become so outraged and angry that they are driven to commit murder against others who do not share their religious and political beliefs. They do not have to know someone to want to murder them. The murderous intent is within themselves. For instance, they are so anti-choice and they are so angry that they can justify in their own minds, the murder of someone who would provide abortions to women.

Do you see in the above quote of yours and how you put the blame of a few crazy killers on ALL of them? "They become so outraged and angry that they are driven to commit murder... They, They, They." I consider myself a very strong believer in the Christian bible, yet I have NEVER, EVER considered killing anyone, nor have I been soooo angry or outraged over other peoples sin. Should I believe that ALL athiests who commit murder are just like the rest of them atheists? Please.:wink:

You said that you do not agree with the man who killed Dr. Tiller and in fact, you said that you think he is crazy. But when you rant and rave about abortion being murder, you sound just like someone who could justify doing away with another human being because as far as you are concerned they are going against God's will.

Oh really? I sound like a murderer because I don't condone murder? Think about it. People who are against abortion because it is murder do not want mothers to take other human lives just because they can. Do you really think those people feel it's okay to kill people if they choose to? Come on, now. That abortion doctor killer who 'claimed' to be a christian was a mentally insane person, just like any atheist out there who kills someone.

But like I said before, these things need to happen to fulfill prophecy. In the end times, we will have unbelievers soooo against God's children that they will want to abolish them.

There's a whole lot of negative-speak going on today everywhere in America. I find it scary and disturbing and I find the attitude and tone of your posts to be negative and disturbing. It's seems to be a dichotomy - on the one hand you're preaching the Bible and speaking of God. On the other hand you're saying things like: "We see it starting already with the homosexual movement who claims that those 'intollerent, hateful christians" are keeping them from their so called 'rights', and the pro choice movement who feel that these christian pro life people are keeping them from their 'right' to murder their babies."

The bible is not all love and compassion and sweetness and joy and peace. Although these attributes surely do apply to God, the bible ALSO speaks of sin and wickedness and justice and God's judgement and Hell, etc. Do you prefer to talk about all the 'wonderful positive' things it says in the bible all the time, or do you want to hear the 'negative' truth. Cause the truth is, that there is a place called Hell where those who don't believe in God will spend their eternity. Sorry, but the sin of Homosexuality will keep you from Heaven if it's not repented of and turned from. So will the sin of killing an unborn human being. For that matter, any sin will keep you out of Heaven. The ONLY way to get in is to ask Jesus to be your Savior. It may not be what anyone wants to hear, but it's the truth. We're all sinners and we all need him to cleanse us so we can enter into the Father's presence.

You are fully allowed to rant all you want about your beliefs. I am supposed to be allowed to do the same. The fact that we completely disagree is unfortunate, but it doesn't give one of us the right to post and the other not. And it doesn't mean that one of us is totally right and the other totally wrong. We're venting, and people will either agree or disagree. We ought to try to keep it impersonal. I will if you will, okay?

I never said because you don't agree with me that you don't have a right to post. Is that what you thought?

......................my replys in red above........

Seriously Patty, do you even look or do just a tiny bit of research before you post? This is probably the lamest rebuttal you’ve made so far. Israel is a Jewish state because they call themselves that, Netanyahu just demanded the Palestinians refer to them as a “Jewish State” and the Star of David is on their flag. Israel does not have a constitution so it is not determined by that. It is not determined by the number of Jews in the country. Iran is officially called the “Islamic Republic of Iran”. Nowhere does our constitution say that we are a Christian nation, nor do we refer to ourselves as the Christian United States of America.

Ask any foreigner what America's religion is. They will tell you it is "christian."

You may not want to believe it, because you live in America and are not a christian. But, it is. Although we do not discriminate here. ANY religion or faith in anything is acceptable to be practiced in America. No one will tell you that you can't worship any god you want, or no god at all, just like no one will tell you that you must be a christian.

I would say that we are at a point where we could just agree to disagree but I don't think that either of us is that agreeable. LOL

I thought about recapping my religious background, so that you might understand a little about MY beliefs, but what's the point?

People always say that one shouldn't discuss politics and religion unless you want a fight. There is some wisdom in that statement.