The early founders of our Nation came to set up a government based on Christian principals. They yearned for a new world where they could establish a society based on biblical values and morals. Our founding Fathers recognized the fact that virtue is crucial to wise leadership. Character does matter. Voters often accept character flaws like marital infidelity and are told not to focus on a candidates "personal life" but to "concentrate on the man". Many Americans fail to realize that a man who will lie to his own wife and break his marriage vows will think nothing of lying to his constituents and breaking his campaign promises.

Whatever happened to America? How did we get from Godly leaders to greedy politicians? We've come from colonial christian education to pagan public schools. How did we get from the puritans' influence and the Great Awakening to secular humanism and a valuless society?

The Founding Fathers had ample evidence that unrestrained democracy led to anarchy. Having witnessed the chaos in France, "the religiously minded leaders and citizens" decided "to choose delegates who had a deep commitment to religious roots of the colonists who established this country". Those who attended the Constitutional convention in 1787 in Philadelphia were selected for their deep commitment to Puritan and Calvinistic doctrine as well as for other political considerations. Their goal was not to establish a democracy in which "Every man does that which is right in his own eyes". Instead, they formated a representative form of government based on divinely inspired law. The Constitution they wrote and the gov. they founded upon it verified that they never intended to establish a secular nation. Instead it was and still is "One Nation Under God." There is no doubt about it--America was established as a christian nation based on biblical principles. I have my opinions on what has happened to America. What are yours? If you want to discuss this with me, please post.

I believe we are really only accountable to God. He has everything to do with it.

Bolding mine. Do you get the point, Pattygreen? YOU BELIEVE, yadda yadda yadda. You are not in charge of society. What you believe is not the determining factor for the country. The beauty of our democratic republic is that you can exercise your beliefs in peace, and so can everyone else. Don't tread on others' where they are not treading on yours.

Why do people want some christian things out of the public schools and not other christian things like singing "Away in a Manger"? Why is it that christians can't have prayer at school, but they can pledge the flag that mentions "under God" in it. It's hypocritical. I believe it's the same thing as people who want to obey God when he says "thou shalt not steal", but not when he says "don't have sex with the same gender". In other words, "if it seems okay to me, then fine. If not, then no." You can't have God on your terms. We must take him at ALL his words or not.

Singing a religious song at a concert is not tantamount to establishing a religion. How do you not get that? Schools that ban all references to religious life are taking it to an absurd extreme, you'll get no argument from me on that.

And, in case you didn't know this, the words Under God are not part of the original pledge. In fact, when I was a kid, I was taught the "real" pledge that puts the emphasis on indivisible, the way it should be.

I believe we are really only accountable to God. He has everything to do with it.

Now you are contradicting yourself, you said we have free will. That is free will to do good or bad. Parents need to teach their kids to be good and schools have to ensure that students follow the rules, its just that simple. I don’t see how God plays into the equation at all.

Why do people want some christian things out of the public schools and not other christian things like singing "Away in a Manger"? Why is it that christians can't have prayer at school, but they can pledge the flag that mentions "under God" in it. It's hypocritical. I believe it's the same thing as people who want to obey God when he says "thou shalt not steal", but not when he says "don't have sex with the same gender". In other words, "if it seems okay to me, then fine. If not, then no." You can't have God on your terms. We must take him at ALL his words or not.

In that case I would vote for it all to be removed. I think unless you can represent all religions (and there is no way you could) then you shouldn’t give any of them preferential treatment or additional recognition.

I actually think removing every reference to God in public life is a little extreme, and am not advocating that at all. There is a historical context to it being on our money, the swearing in of office, etc. None of those however makes us a “Christian Country” though and certainly should not open the door to more religious policy or recognition. We are a secular democracy and should stay that way.

Edited June 15, 200917 yr by KartMan

Students for America took a survey of 13 colleges and found that 56 % of the students polled said that right and wrong is a matter of personal opinion. Only 38% said they believe their are absolutes.

The nations prison pop. has now topped 1 million. that's 400 for every 100,000 people. Today, children are killing children. Secular humanism will never change anyone behavior. They have no answer ot the "why not?" Why not casual sex? Why not smoke marijuana? Why not steal a pair of Nikes? Why not peak at my neighbors teat paper?Don't be surprised, our educational system is merely reaping what it sows. It goes beyond why Jane can't read to why Jane can't tell right from wrong. The eral point of education is to produce leadership that is achieved by the formation of character. Humanists can't produce character because they have no basis on which to make a list of attitudes they want children to attain. To change a childs attitude is impossible unless his heart agrees. And that is something 'mere' education without christian morals can never do.The puritans knew that the true purpose of education was to teach how to apply christian principals to the issues in every area of life.

How does teaching religion change any of that? Don’t make me go find statistics of teen pregnancy, drug use, cheating, stealing, etc. in religious private schools. You and both know that it will be there and it will be in comparable numbers to non-religious private schools. I would expect it to be a little less than public schools only because the private schools have the ability to throw the kids out where the public system can’t quite do that. The point is that the teaching of religion (or not teaching it) has little to do with the morality of the kids.

How does teaching religion change any of that? Don’t make me go find statistics of teen pregnancy, drug use, cheating, stealing, etc. in religious private schools. You and both know that it will be there and it will be in comparable numbers to non-religious private schools. I would expect it to be a little less than public schools only because the private schools have the ability to throw the kids out where the public system can’t quite do that. The point is that the teaching of religion (or not teaching it) has little to do with the morality of the kids.

Maybe they should have just prayed more. That would solve everything. :bored:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattygreen

I believe we are really only accountable to God. He has everything to do with it.

Bolding mine. Do you get the point, Pattygreen? YOU BELIEVE, yadda yadda yadda. You are not in charge of society. What you believe is not the determining factor for the country. The beauty of our democratic republic is that you can exercise your beliefs in peace, and so can everyone else. Don't tread on others' where they are not treading on yours.

.........................................................................................................

It's NOT just what I believe. That's the point. 92% of Americans 'believe' in God.

If you don't believe in God, then you are one of the 'only' 8% who live in this country who don't.

Singing a religious song at a concert is not tantamount to establishing a religion. How do you not get that? Schools that ban all references to religious life are taking it to an absurd extreme, you'll get no argument from me on that.

Then who decides? Who makes the decision if prayer can be in school or a religious song? This is where you get division. If it was good enough for our founding fathers children to be taught biblical morals and to pray to God in school, then it should be good enough for our children. Who ever decided to ban it anyway? If they didn't like it, they could tell their children not to say the prayers with the others, or they could home school or set up private schools that excluded God from them. This is where we, as a Christian Nation, went wrong. We allowed the minority who didn't believe in God to infiltrate the rest who did.

And, in case you didn't know this, the words Under God are not part of the original pledge. In fact, when I was a kid, I was taught the "real" pledge that puts the emphasis on indivisible, the way it should be.

I knew that 'Under God' was added at a later date. Indivisible just means undivided. We stand as a nation together, undivided. That has nothing to do with undivided in our religious beliefs. And so what if 'under God' was added later? It only confirms and endorces that even the government in 1954 under Eisenhower's presidency knew that God was the reason for this Nations greatness and power. He understood that it was only by God's grace that we were a blessed nation. Do you see when the tide in this country turned? It wasn't much longer after that time when prayer was removed from our schools. This is about the time of this countries moral decline and it's jump in everything of no virtue. (abortion rates, the gay movement, out of control crimes and prisons filling up to capacity, sky high divorce rates, people living together was acceptable, drugs in the 60's which brought drug addictions and alcohol abuse, murders on the rise, and I could go on) It's been downhill since then. When you choose to remove God from a Nation, you remove his blessings as well.

Edited June 16, 200917 yr by pattygreen

Now you are contradicting yourself, you said we have free will. That is free will to do good or bad. Parents need to teach their kids to be good and schools have to ensure that students follow the rules, its just that simple. I don’t see how God plays into the equation at all.

And how does saying that we are only accountable to God contradict that? We are accountable to God for everything we do in the flesh, whether good or bad. We have the free will to choose to do good or to choose to do bad. We will also have to answer to him for it all someday. Please explain how I have contradicted myself with those words.

In that case I would vote for it all to be removed. I think unless you can represent all religions (and there is no way you could) then you shouldn’t give any of them preferential treatment or additional recognition.

I actually think removing every reference to God in public life is a little extreme, and am not advocating that at all. There is a historical context to it being on our money, the swearing in of office, etc. None of those however makes us a “Christian Country” though and certainly should not open the door to more religious policy or recognition. We are a secular democracy and should stay that way.

Your last statement caught me. We were 'once' a christian nation and we should have stayed that way. Why do you feel that now that we have become secular, that we should stay that way? That was not our founding fathers original plan. We should not have changed our views. Why is it okay for you to desire our nation to exclude God from it's governing, but it's not okay for me to want to go back to the original intent of this countries founding fathers and put God back where He rightfully belongs? As the Lord of this nation?

How does teaching religion change any of that? Don’t make me go find statistics of teen pregnancy, drug use, cheating, stealing, etc. in religious private schools. You and both know that it will be there and it will be in comparable numbers to non-religious private schools. I would expect it to be a little less than public schools only because the private schools have the ability to throw the kids out where the public system can’t quite do that. The point is that the teaching of religion (or not teaching it) has little to do with the morality of the kids.

Not true. The teaching of christian morals are very important. When a kid does wrong, he understands that there are consequences. Not just in this life, but in the next.

I understand that there is an equal amount of immorality amongst kids from christian and public schools. We can not stop teaching them that they have an eternal God to answer to for their choices in life, despite their choices. That's like saying "I'm not gonna teach my child that to swear is disrespectful, cause he's gonna swear anyway. Why bother."

God has a Holy Spirit that moves in the hearts of those who believe in Him. If you remove him from education (moral teaching), you remove the Holy Spirit, who does the work of conviction in each individuals heart. When their is no conviction, then you have children without remorse for what they do and children who will do what's wrong simply because they have no one to answer to. If they have no guide book, then what ever is right or wrong in their own eyes is what rules them.

Have you ever heard of your "consciense"? That's really God speaking to your heart and either showing you when you've done something wonderful, or convicting you when you've done something to be ashamed of.

I looked for stats on christian schooled children vs. public school taught children concerning pregnancy rates or drug use rates, and couldn't find any. My bet is that the christian school taught children have a lower rate, but I may be wrong. I understand that free will is every persons choice, so even if we are taught properly, their is every chance that we will not always do what's right. On the other hand,those that are taught properly and ask Jesus to be their Savior have the Holy Spirit living within them to guide them in their choices, so their chances of choosing to do the right thing would be greater than the one without God's guidance.

Maybe they should have just prayed more. That would solve everything. :bored:

What Happened When the Praying Stopped — The Forerunner

Please view this website. It explains what happened when children were forced to stop praying in school.

We were 'once' a christian nation and we should have stayed that way.

This is simply categorically untrue, and why there's no point in continuing this conversation. You clearly don't understand--and don't value--the most basic underpinnings of American society.

This is simply categorically untrue, and why there's no point in continuing this conversation. You clearly don't understand--and don't value--the most basic underpinnings of American society.

I agree, there is no logic here. Fortunately, the christian god does not have sole jurisdiction in America, where the rights of people to practice any type of religion, or non at all, are protected by the constitution. Even religious fanatics have the right to believe what they chose to believe. I am glad I have the right to ignore them.

I agree, there is no logic here. Fortunately, the christian god does not have sole jurisdiction in America, where the rights of people to practice any type of religion, or non at all, are protected by the constitution. Even religious fanatics have the right to believe what they chose to believe. I am glad I have the right to ignore them.

I thought I'd like to add that I don't believe I'm a religious fanatic. I hate organized religions made up by mankind. I think they cause alot of problems in the world. I'm more for a faith in Jesus as our creator fanatatic and in having a relationship with him (outside of religion).That's why I don't want any specific 'religion' to be the head faith in America.(Nor did those who wrote up the constitution). Not even any Christian religion. I just want christianity in general, to be recognized as the faith of our founders and their plan for this country. I would like people to stop trying to push God out of everything public.

I thought I'd like to add that I don't believe I'm a religious fanatic. I hate organized religions made up by mankind. I think they cause alot of problems in the world. I'm more for a faith in Jesus as our creator fanatatic and in having a relationship with him (outside of religion).That's why I don't want any specific 'religion' to be the head faith in America.(Nor did those who wrote up the constitution). Not even any Christian religion. I just want christianity in general, to be recognized as the faith of our founders and their plan for this country. I would like people to stop trying to push God out of everything public.

No one's God has any place in the public. With as many religions and personally held philosophies in the world how can you possible claim yours is more 'right' than any others? How can you be so vain as to claim there is only one God for everyone? You are completely convinced on the validity and truth of your own personal set of beliefs and you filter your opinion of others through this narrow field of vision your faith allows you. Your faith is no more credible than anyone else's, past or present. Why should your set of be believed to be more credible than any others? Because you say so? Because the bible says so? What about other religious works? You cant dismiss other brands of religion or faith and claim yours as truth and then declare that all the woes of the world lie in the fault of people who have turned away from your particular god. It is irrational. I know you would like to rewrite history so we will all believe we are all supposed to be christian but that is not that case AND it is not even relative. The fact of the matter is, we are not all religious and all the woes of the world are not to be blamed on the godless heathens. It is a thin line between saturday night and sunday morning. You can claim to not be a religious fanatic but a fanatic you are, in my opinion, and since opinion must be truth, I must be right.