The early founders of our Nation came to set up a government based on Christian principals. They yearned for a new world where they could establish a society based on biblical values and morals. Our founding Fathers recognized the fact that virtue is crucial to wise leadership. Character does matter. Voters often accept character flaws like marital infidelity and are told not to focus on a candidates "personal life" but to "concentrate on the man". Many Americans fail to realize that a man who will lie to his own wife and break his marriage vows will think nothing of lying to his constituents and breaking his campaign promises.

Whatever happened to America? How did we get from Godly leaders to greedy politicians? We've come from colonial christian education to pagan public schools. How did we get from the puritans' influence and the Great Awakening to secular humanism and a valuless society?

The Founding Fathers had ample evidence that unrestrained democracy led to anarchy. Having witnessed the chaos in France, "the religiously minded leaders and citizens" decided "to choose delegates who had a deep commitment to religious roots of the colonists who established this country". Those who attended the Constitutional convention in 1787 in Philadelphia were selected for their deep commitment to Puritan and Calvinistic doctrine as well as for other political considerations. Their goal was not to establish a democracy in which "Every man does that which is right in his own eyes". Instead, they formated a representative form of government based on divinely inspired law. The Constitution they wrote and the gov. they founded upon it verified that they never intended to establish a secular nation. Instead it was and still is "One Nation Under God." There is no doubt about it--America was established as a christian nation based on biblical principles. I have my opinions on what has happened to America. What are yours? If you want to discuss this with me, please post.

I don't understand.........Do Liberals always think this? What fun are they having that you think that they think might be spoiled? Are Liberals and Christians mutually exclusive?

Sorry, I should have said "generally". Liberals generally think that christians are trying to spoil all their fun. It's fun to do what you want to do dispite those who would say it is wrong in God's eyes. Liberals and christians are not exclusive, But I believe that most liberals are not christians. Or, they deny God's word to be true. See this link, please.

What is liberal Christian theology?

As I mentioned on a previous thread, I spent quite a long time in the hospital with my son. Any group that came in to see the patients without prior arrangement were asked to leave. I didn't see any Christian groups asked to leave, but I did see a group of highschool kids who had made toys for the kids asked to leave and call ahead to make arrangements to come in.

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I can remember when stores were closed on Sundays. Today noone wants laws forbidding them to do anything - except to preach the gospel in public places. When 75 dedicated teens from a baptist church in Albuquerque, NM went to Los Angeles on a mission to witness for Christ and to sing and testify, they met with resistance at every turn. They went to UCLA Medical Center to perform for the dying children there and when they began to sing, the director of the center told them to leave because they had mentioned the name of Jesus. Then they went to the mall to pass out Christian literature and invite people to church. They weren't buttonholing shoppers or forcing their views on anyone, yet a security guard asked them to leave the premises. The way America is treating Christians today is the way Hitler treated the Jews in the 1930's. Remember, before holocaust and genocide and physical persecution always comes slander, scandal, public ridicule, and abuse. You don't have to go far to find people who think, because of the image being portrayed by the media, that fundamentalist evangelicals are not only fanatics but dangerous to society. Liberals always think that Christians are going to spoil all their fun or limit their freedoms. History, however, reveals just the opposite. The fact that Christianity has had a positive effect on America cannot be doubted. Our founding fathers believed that only a nation that trusted in God could survive as a democracy. The ideals of life, liberty and happiness were perceived as resting on the premise that "all men were created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." Belief in God was the glue that held society together. Today, the liberal elite want to keep 'religion' in its proper place - inside the church. Removing God from the public arena has been detrimental to America. This is why I feel that the decline in morals in this country have fallen sharply.

Patty,

I see so many things wrong with this rant that I almost don’t know where to begin and since I am pressed for time, I can only address one issue. It’s not the non-believers that want to force doctrine on society – it’s the believers. Well, let me rephrase that, it’s the believers that are convinced that theirs is absolutely the only way and that everybody else has it wrong. They want to bend as many of our laws to their will as they can and have us all follow the same doctrine that they believe in. To me, I really don’t see a big difference in your vision of America and what the Taliban wanted for Afghanistan. Now I realize that both faiths are very different and that both would have different interpretations of religious law on society. But for me, a non believer, those laws and customs that are mandated from a religious rather than secular perspective are equally offensive and repressive.

Now before you get mad at me for comparing you and yours to the Taliban, just remember that you started it by comparing liberals to Hitler. I think we can agree that both analogies are a stretch, but if one is fair game then I think the other is as well.

Patty,

I see so many things wrong with this rant that I almost don’t know where to begin and since I am pressed for time, I can only address one issue. It’s not the non-believers that want to force doctrine on society – it’s the believers. Well, let me rephrase that, it’s the believers that are convinced that theirs is absolutely the only way and that everybody else has it wrong. They want to bend as many of our laws to their will as they can and have us all follow the same doctrine that they believe in.

Not true here. Believers don't want to change things, we want them the way they were from the beginning. We don't want to enforce our doctrines on anyone. We had these christian morals and virtues in place since the formation of America. We gradually lost them to 'liberals' over time, little by little, and just want them back. You see, unbelievers have bent the laws (as you call it) that were in place since the founding fathers were here, to conform to their way. Why was it okay for unbelievers to change things in America? We would never have tolerated 'legal' abortions, or gay marriages back in the day. Now people are forcing that on Christians, the same way you say that christians are forcing unbelievers to conform. Calling them haters and bigots if they don't become tollerant of that sinful lifestyle. We are persecuted if we don't 'accept' what God deems sinful.

To me, I really don’t see a big difference in your vision of America and what the Taliban wanted for Afghanistan. Now I realize that both faiths are very different and that both would have different interpretations of religious law on society. But for me, a non believer, those laws and customs that are mandated from a religious rather than secular perspective are equally offensive and repressive.

The difference is that here in America, in a Christian nation, you are not forced to believe in God. You can believe in anything or anyone you choose. We are founded on christian principals, and we run on them, but we don't force anyone to attend christian assemblys or believe in Jesus. This is not true with Afghanistan. They force their people to worship their God.

Now before you get mad at me for comparing you and yours to the Taliban, just remember that you started it by comparing liberals to Hitler. I think we can agree that both analogies are a stretch, but if one is fair game then I think the other is as well.

I'm not mad about that. It was just an analogy. I get it.

I'm not mad about that. It was just an analogy. I get it.

Not true here. Believers don't want to change things, we want them the way they were from the beginning. We don't want to enforce our doctrines on anyone. We had these christian morals and virtues in place since the formation of America. We gradually lost them to 'liberals' over time, little by little, and just want them back. You see, unbelievers have bent the laws (as you call it) that were in place since the founding fathers were here, to conform to their way. Why was it okay for unbelievers to change things in America? We would never have tolerated 'legal' abortions, or gay marriages back in the day

We also had slavery, lack of women’s rights, corporal punishment, etc., etc., etc. The point is that we have evolved (I realize that you may see it as devolving) as a society. Unfortunately for your side of the argument, most voters are moving in a more progressive direction. As a secular democracy, our laws should be (and for the most part are) based on the will of the people and not the theology of any of its segments. The majority of Americans believe that a women should have the right to choose with respect to reproductive rights. Not all voters have always gone this way, but most polls are trending towards equal rights for gays (gays in the military, gay marriage, and other gay rights). Most Americans (even religious Americans) are very comfortable with not allowing structured religion into public schools.

Now people are forcing that on Christians, the same way you say that christians are forcing unbelievers to conform. Calling them haters and bigots if they don't become tollerant of that sinful lifestyle. We are persecuted if we don't 'accept' what God deems sinful.

With these secular laws, nobody is forcing Christians to have abortions or to enter into a Gay marriage, all that is being done is disallowing you the ability to prevent others from doing what the rest of society has agreed to be fair and legal.

The difference is that here in America, in a Christian nation, you are not forced to believe in God. You can believe in anything or anyone you choose. We are founded on christian principals, and we run on them, but we don't force anyone to attend christian assemblys or believe in Jesus. This is not true with Afghanistan. They force their people to worship their God.

We are not a “Christian Nation”, we are a secular nation full of Christians, Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, other faiths, and unbelievers. I’ve had this debate with you before and the evidence is very clear on this. I challenge you to find an elected official to agree with you that we are a “Christian Nation”, you won’t because they know that we are not and if they said we were they wouldn’t hold that office for long. If you persist in calling America a Christian Nation then you are just proving that you are irrational and out of touch with reality on this topic.

We also had slavery, lack of women’s rights, corporal punishment, etc., etc., etc. The point is that we have evolved (I realize that you may see it as devolving) as a society. Unfortunately for your side of the argument, most voters are moving in a more progressive direction. As a secular democracy, our laws should be (and for the most part are) based on the will of the people and not the theology of any of its segments. The majority of Americans believe that a women should have the right to choose with respect to reproductive rights. Not all voters have always gone this way, but most polls are trending towards equal rights for gays (gays in the military, gay marriage, and other gay rights). Most Americans (even religious Americans) are very comfortable with not allowing structured religion into public schools.

The issues you mentioned here about slavery and womens rights are no comparison, because they needed to be corrected by society. It is not sinful to be a woman or to have black skin. Therefore, I can understand changing those wrongs in society, but gay rights is sinful, and so is abortion. They should not be allowed.

With these secular laws, nobody is forcing Christians to have abortions or to enter into a Gay marriage, all that is being done is disallowing you the ability to prevent others from doing what the rest of society has agreed to be fair and legal.

The sins of society affect ALL of society. So even if I personally were not going to enter into a homosexual relationship, or have an abortion, allowing others to do so will negatively affect all. What about the life that got killed?

We are not a “Christian Nation”, we are a secular nation full of Christians, Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, other faiths, and unbelievers. I’ve had this debate with you before and the evidence is very clear on this. I challenge you to find an elected official to agree with you that we are a “Christian Nation”, you won’t because they know that we are not and if they said we were they wouldn’t hold that office for long. If you persist in calling America a Christian Nation then you are just proving that you are irrational and out of touch with reality on this topic.

We began as a christian nation. 92% of all the people who live here in America say that they are of the Christian Faith. My point is that the moral decline of this nation is due to the fact that God gave us this land so that we could better worship Him in freedom and peace. When the people made the choice to turn their backs on him and make this into a secular nation (probably around the 1960's or so) he removed many of his blessings from us.

I will not be able to find an elected official today who will agree with the Christian Nation thing. You are right there. But go back before 1950's or so, before they took prayer out of the public schools and seperated state from church. That is because the secular humanists took God out of America and substituted the worship of man in his place.

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I couldn't get the quote to come up so I'll type it out:

"Liberals generally think that christians are trying to spoil all their fun. It's fun to do what you want to do despite those who would say it's wrong in God's eyes."

What could be fun that I would want to do that you would say is wrong in God's eyes. Marry my girlfriend?

Ok, just say I was a lesbian and wanted to marry. YOU tell me that it's wrong in God's eyes. I do it anyway.

In light of the above quote it sounds an awful lot like you're trying to impose your will on me.

As far as the singing in the hospital goes it sounds like you're quite in favour of people going into a hospital and singing to the dying children.

My kid is dying. This is where he is living at the moment. You think it's alright to go into his temporary home uninvited and sing?

Once more....sounds like you're trying to impose your will.

Patty!!!!! Back yourself up and apologize to me!!!

You have quoted me as saying things that i have not said. You are way out of line and you need to stop the false arguments and rebuttals that you attribute to me.

If you can't read an entire post and understand it then give it up. You are not going to be allowed to quote me incorrectly just to make your points. It is not only unfair, it is gross!

Just stop it right now!!!!!

The issues you mentioned here about slavery and womens rights are no comparison, because they needed to be corrected by society. It is not sinful to be a woman or to have black skin. Therefore, I can understand changing those wrongs in society, but gay rights is sinful, and so is abortion. They should not be allowed.

See this is where morality is in the eye of the beholder. I think it is immoral to force a woman to have a baby against her will. I also do not believe in sin, so I don’t think gay relationships are sinful, ergo not allowing a man to wed his lover or a woman to marry her soul mate is nothing more than bigotry to me.

We began as a christian nation. 92% of all the people who live here in America say that they are of the Christian Faith. My point is that the moral decline of this nation is due to the fact that God gave us this land so that we could better worship Him in freedom and peace. When the people made the choice to turn their backs on him and make this into a secular nation (probably around the 1960's or so) he removed many of his blessings from us.

I will not be able to find an elected official today who will agree with the Christian Nation thing. You are right there. But go back before 1950's or so, before they took prayer out of the public schools and seperated state from church. That is because the secular humanists took God out of America and substituted the worship of man in his place.

I can’t see how we can move forward on this topic. I have conceded to you in the past that it is true that many of the framers of the constitution were in fact Christian, however, we have never been a “Christian Nation”. I can (and have) cited many sources that prove that while they themselves may have been religious, they did not want religion to be doled out in any way by the government.

I’m sorry if I sound insensitive here, but as far as I am concerned God didn’t “give” us anything. We “took” it away from the aboriginal population and we made it what we wanted it to be. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to shift the topic to Indian rights and colonial injustice (that is a whole different debate), I just don’t believe God “gave” us this country. To me, that sort of statement is just as shallow as an athlete that says he was helped to win the game by his belief in God. Really? The others guys belief in God was less so God picked sides?

bjean

Frankly this kind of bigoted and biased negative rant against anyone who is not right wing reeks of the same kind of propaganda and brainwashing that Hitler used AGAINST Jews

You can dish it out. But I can't?

You, at one time, made it clear to me that I was just like the abortion doctor killer because of my strong stand on Christianity and the word of God. Are you going to deny that? Unless it was just the way you led me to feel through a series of conversations with you, and not actually those exact words. Either way, you led me to believe that you felt this way about us christian 'extremists'. If that's not really how you feel, then I apologize.

I couldn't get the quote to come up so I'll type it out:

"Liberals generally think that christians are trying to spoil all their fun. It's fun to do what you want to do despite those who would say it's wrong in God's eyes."

What could be fun that I would want to do that you would say is wrong in God's eyes. Marry my girlfriend?

Ok, just say I was a lesbian and wanted to marry. YOU tell me that it's wrong in God's eyes. I do it anyway.

In light of the above quote it sounds an awful lot like you're trying to impose your will on me.

Laws are like that. They impose the will of the people on the people. Someone may not like it that they can't use cocaine, but it's for their own good. We need this law. It's wrong to alter your brain and snort this stuff through your nose and alter your mood through it. Others may feel it's okay to drink at 14. Laws don't allow it. Therefore, it can't be done. Sometimes others have to step in and make laws for mankind to follow, because it's for their own good and for the good of society. This is what I mean when I say that if all people were to follow the guidebook (bible) that God gave us, there would be no problems in the world. If we don't allow God to determine what is right and wrong for us, then who is to determine? We certainly can't agree on what's right and what's wrong.

As far as the singing in the hospital goes it sounds like you're quite in favour of people going into a hospital and singing to the dying children.

Yes, I am. I work in a convelescent home and see that the people living there love it when others come in to sing. Most children love music. This incident was clearly one persons grudge against songs that sang about God.

My kid is dying. This is where he is living at the moment. You think it's alright to go into his temporary home uninvited and sing?

Once more....sounds like you're trying to impose your will.

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This still sounds like you're imposing your will.

Submitting to the laws of the land and to someone else's beliefs are totally different situations.

You coming into my dying son's temporary home because you think he should have music would be imposing your will.

Your above quote is quite telling: "It's fun to do what you want to do despite those who would say it's wrong in God's eyes."

YOU are telling me that God has laws and I should follow them. I don't believe they are God's laws. But according to you I should follow what you say anyway? That's YOUR will you're trying to impose.

patty: "You can dish it out. But I can't?

Patty: "You, at one time, made it clear to me that I was just like the abortion doctor killer because of my strong stand on Christianity and the word of God. Are you going to deny that? Unless it was just the way you led me to feel through a series of conversations with you, and not actually those exact words. Either way, you led me to believe that you felt this way about us christian 'extremists'. If that's not really how you feel, then I apologize."

Patty, patty, patty.... you can behave as such a simpleton when you feel it is in your interests to do so. If you want to quote me, then use my words. You know how angry you get when someone characterizes your words to mean something different than you intended. Especially if the spin they put on your words is not really what you said.

But I'm upset with you because you put words in quotes that you attribute to me that I never wrote. You are very, very wrong to do that.

As for my making it clear to you that you are just like the abortion doctor killer... see your words below,

"You, at one time, made it clear to me that I was just like the abortion doctor killer because of my strong stand on Christianity and the word of God.

you're not entirely correct. I said that there are people who are right wing extremists who are happy, and in fact they are elated, that the good doctor was killed. They believe that it was God's will.

If you choose to identify with that statement, that is certainly your prerrogative. However, I certianly did not say that patty is happy that the doctor was murdered in cold blood in his church.

And I do feel that what I said is true about many right wing extremists who call themselves Christians but who do not follow the word of God. They are willing to hurt people who do not agree with their religious beliefs, which they justify because they claim that they are accepted "sinners" by God because they have convinced themselves that they are tools for God's work and furthermore, they do not fear the wrath of God (or the laws of the land) because they are doing God's work and he forgives them because they are "born again" and they will most definitely be going to heaven because that's what it's all about Alfie. *she stops, she takes a breath, whew!*

Patty, you are right about me when you said that I am afraid of and detest right wing extremists who take the law into their own hands. You are right about me when you say that I believe separation of church and state is necessary because of crazy fanatics who would force their beliefs on all other Americans because they think they are the only ones who understand the Bible and what God intends for us.

But you are quite wrong when you presume that I have made any statement of fact that you are THAT extreme. Your posts make it quite clear to anyone who reads them what kind of person you are. I simply attempt to argue the pros and cons of religious pomposity; of intolerance and hatred and about the more tempered approach to spiritual beliefs.

You need make your own arguments without misquoting me. You can debate with me and argue against anything I say, that's fair game. But don't use your anger to try to make me look bad.

You can dish it out all you like patty, no one is trying to stop you or even inhibit you from that, but don't misquote me. In fact, don't misquote anyone. It's not fair and there is simply nothing that justifies misquoting someone.

Edited July 3, 200917 yr by BJean

bJean says: (From post 177) - You said that you do not agree with the man who killed Dr. Tiller and in fact, you said that you think he is crazy. But when you rant and rave about abortion being murder, you sound just like someone who could justify doing away with another human being because as far as you are concerned they are going against God's will.

Need I say more?

This still sounds like you're imposing your will.

Submitting to the laws of the land and to someone else's beliefs are totally different situations.

All laws are based on someones belief that they are 'good' for mankind. God is the one who said what is good and what isn't. 'Thou shalt not murder' is God's law that mankind felt was 'good' for mankind. 'Thou shalt not steal' is another good one. But 'thou shalt not lie with a man like a man lies with a woman', That's not a good one? Why not? because man wants to do what man wants to do. Society should not pick and choose the laws of God to follow and those they won't. God set these rules in place for the 'good' of all mankind. He's not trying to 'spoil' anyones fun.

You coming into my dying son's temporary home because you think he should have music would be imposing your will.

If a person at a hospital didn't want their child sung to, they can say so, or shut the door. It was the supervisor there who was against it, not the parents of the children.

Your above quote is quite telling: "It's fun to do what you want to do despite those who would say it's wrong in God's eyes."

YOU are telling me that God has laws and I should follow them. I don't believe they are God's laws. But according to you I should follow what you say anyway? That's YOUR will you're trying to impose.

Actually, You have every right to do as you please. I believe everyone should follow God's laws, but it is not my decision to make for you or anyone else. What I am saying is that America, at one time, had laws set in place that went according to God's word. Over time, unbelievers changed them to suit their own desires. And they are still trying to change them. Christians didn't stand up for what was right and now we are saddled with laws that go against God's will for us. Christianity was and still should be this nations faith and anyone who lives here is free to join in or choose their own faith. But changing the laws from what God deems right to what unbelievers deem right has done nothing but mess up this country.

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Patty: if you don't understand the distinction between what I said and what you said, then no wonder you would misquote me.

I have no problem with you dragging what I really said over, but don't put quotes around something I didn't say. And don't say that I said that you were happy that the doctor was killed. I said that you sound like someone who could justify killing someone if they are going against God's will. Meaning that your rant on that subject was sounding scary. I didn't state as fact that you are someone who would kill in the name of God and I didn't insinuate that you would go kill somone. I'd go find it and post it here, but I think everyone who reads this stuff knows what I'm talking about.

Patty you keep speaking to your claim that those teenagers were asked to leave by the hospital administrator because they said "Jesus" and you didn't say anything about how the children reacted. Could you please give us some backup data? Everyone always insists that I have back up data. Your turn. Find the book or the newspaper or wherever you read it and show us who reported it and exactly how it was reported and when the event occurred. Please.