Is God real?

[Lydiafree 0]

I really don’t see the difference between the made up stuff that is “added” and the made up stuff that is already in there.

*lol* that's because there is no difference. Notice how often the excuse for faith is "I KNOW x is true".

In what other area of life would that fly? Would you go to a doctor who tells you have cancer, not because she's done any testing, but because she KNOWS you do?

People KNOW god exists because they WANT god to exist.

I WANT to have superpowers. Tragically, this does not make them real.

[pattygreen 5]

All that many Christians have to give is their own testimony. As a christian, I know what I was before I decided to believe in Jesus and trust him for my salvation, and I know what I am now that I have turned from that way of life. I am a different person. I guess what it takes is an act of faith. Once you decide to make God real in your life, He then becomes real in your life. I can't explain it very well, but I'll try. Every person is born physically. At some point in their life, they ponder life. Is there a creator? Is there an after life? Why am I here? They then make a choice. To believe that there is a God or to reject it. Those who choose to believe pray to this God that created them and either confess to him that they believe in Him or simply by the fact that they are talking to him, God sees that they believe. They are then born again. This time spiritually. There is a change that comes upon the believer. His eyes are opened and he now understands spiritual things. God comes to dwell in his physical body, which God calls his temple. The believer then begins to hunger and thirst after righteousness and desires to learn all that he can about this God who created them. They have a connection with all others who believe in God as well, for now they get it. That's why some christians call other christians their brothers or sisters in Christ. Now they see, they understand that there is more to this life. That is why christians are called born againers. There really is 2 births for every person, but until you accept Jesus as your Savior, you will never experience the 2nd spiritual birth. Hope that helps.

This post I gave explains why christians say they "know" that God exists. They have had a spiritual experience with God that others have not had the opportunity in life to experience due to their unbelief. It has everything to do with Faith. Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

[KartMan 58]

i believe that the concept of religion was fabricated to make people morally just.... though there is no way that there is a god... but religion is good because it creates morals... and even though i don't believe i will make my kids go to church so that they will have good morals

I guess for me, if religion were just about teaching us the difference between right and wrong I would be ok with it. Kids (and many adults) really don’t seem to always know the difference and there would be value in an institution that could help society convey those principals. The problem is that that teaching of right and wrong via religion is that it is layered with hocus pocus and mythical creatures that are supposed to make you feel better or scare you into believing the teachings. Couple that with the fact that often times religious institutions have people in power within that are truly evil (the popes at the time of the inquisition, the people that incite their followers to kill abortion doctors, ministers that supported the Klan during the civil rights era, priests that molest little children, etc., etc., etc.).

I am not religious and I do not believe in God. I do however have a strong sense of morality and do my very best to be kind to my fellow man. I teach my kids to not say hurtful things to others and provide them with many examples of the difference between right and wrong. When I do something wrong, I know it is wrong. I don’t need to go to church and ask god to absolve me of the sin, how does that help the victim? In that case I do my best to make restitution. For example, if I were to hit a parked car in a parking lot should I drive away and then pray to God later for my sin? No, I should do my best to find the other owner and deal with the problem directly.

My biggest problem with religion today is it’s instance on meddling with our laws. If a man loves a man (or a woman loves a woman) and wants to commit to him what reason does society have to stop them? Here in California we just passed a law to ban same sex marriage. Not because most people think it is wrong, but because an out of state religious institution dumped millions of dollars on a hate mongering smear campaign. How can society allow the context of the bible to force a woman and her highly skilled physician on what course of action to take with an unwanted pregnancy? Apparently for some that feel this way, passing laws against abortion is not enough, they feel it is their obligation to go out and kill medical doctors to make their point. Why should we even consider allowing one or any religion to infringe on any aspect of public life (school prayer, teaching of creationism, etc.)?

[pattygreen 5]

I guess for me, if religion were just about teaching us the difference between right and wrong I would be ok with it. Kids (and many adults) really don’t seem to always know the difference and there would be value in an institution that could help society convey those principals. The problem is that that teaching of right and wrong via religion is that it is layered with hocus pocus and mythical creatures that are supposed to make you feel better or scare you into believing the teachings. Couple that with the fact that often times religious institutions have people in power within that are truly evil (the popes at the time of the inquisition, the people that incite their followers to kill abortion doctors, ministers that supported the Klan during the civil rights era, priests that molest little children, etc., etc., etc.).

Just because mankind has made a decision to put the Creator in the midst of their doctrines doesn't make him any less real. God hates religions as well. He called the pharasees hypocrites and liars.

I am not religious and I do not believe in God. I do however have a strong sense of morality and do my very best to be kind to my fellow man. I teach my kids to not say hurtful things to others and provide them with many examples of the difference between right and wrong. When I do something wrong, I know it is wrong. I don’t need to go to church and ask god to absolve me of the sin, how does that help the victim?

Only 'religions' teach that, not God. Just because mankind has made the decision to tell others that attending church is a necessity doesn't mean God has said that.

In that case I do my best to make restitution. For example, if I were to hit a parked car in a parking lot should I drive away and then pray to God later for my sin? No, I should do my best to find the other owner and deal with the problem directly.

True. But if you accidently hit a parked car, there is no need for forgiveness, it was an accident. Restitution is all that's needed.

My biggest problem with religion today is it’s instance on meddling with our laws. If a man loves a man (or a woman loves a woman) and wants to commit to him what reason does society have to stop them?

Simply because God has said NO. No other reason. He is God. He makes the rules. When a parent tells a child that he can't do something, he can't. Period. No debate. No questions asked. As children, we obey our parents, and we obey God.

Here in California we just passed a law to ban same sex marriage. Not because most people think it is wrong, but because an out of state religious institution dumped millions of dollars on a hate mongering smear campaign.

No, it was because most people believe it is wrong. There was a vote on it.

How can society allow the context of the bible to force a woman and her highly skilled physician on what course of action to take with an unwanted pregnancy?

Because God says NO.

Apparently for some that feel this way, passing laws against abortion is not enough, they feel it is their obligation to go out and kill medical doctors to make their point.

No. That man who murdered the doctor was insane, and others do NOT feel it is their obligation to kill medical doctors to make their point. But, you can be sure that society , especially non-christians, will make sure that they let everyone know that this is the way ALL those crazy christians feel.:frown:

Why should we even consider allowing one or any religion to infringe on any aspect of public life (school prayer, teaching of creationism, etc.)?

Because our founding Fathers formed this country on the Christian Faith. We have always allowed freedom of religion, meaning you are free to worship whomever you like, but we put our foot down at making other faiths this countries guidebook.

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[naynayto2 0]

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Well said, Patty! Thank God for people like you:)

[pattygreen 5]

Well said, Patty! Thank God for people like you:)

And thank God for people like you! God bless you.

I see we are the same age.

Edited June 2, 2009 by pattygreen

[KartMan 58]

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Wow, I almost don’t know where to begin with this one… First you agree that religions are bad and that even God abhors them, then you go on to espouse the greatness of religious teachings. You don’t see the duplicity in that? You believe that your faith says you have the right to deny others and that God has said this so it must be mans law? Well I’m sorry I think that is naïve, I just can’t say that two people that love each other can’t be together just because you think that is the way God wants it. Or that since you believe abortion is murder it gives you the right to tell a woman she does not have control over her own body. Just to clarify, I am a white heterosexual male – so I don’t have an agenda on either of those topics other than to do what I think is fair. As to the vote, you are correct that most people that voted on it agree that it is wrong but polls show that most ordinary people do not feel that way. The conservative base was successful in getting it’s people rallied up and most of them voted but they don’t have the numbers to sustain victory. Other states are moving in the “fair” direction on this and California will soon follow. I’m not saying all pro-lifers are raving lunatics like the guy in Kansas, but there are enough of them out there that your side should do more to stop yet they don’t.

Our founding fathers also thought slavery was a legitimate business enterprise, that only white males could vote, and that a woman’s place was at home in the kitchen serving dinner to her family, we have come to realize that all of those principles are wrong and our society has moved past them. The country was not founded “on” Christian faith, but “by” mainly Christian men. Those men were nothing more or less than men today, they were fallible. Just because they were predominantly Christian should not mean that everything we do as a country should be based on Christian values.

[pattygreen 5]

Wow, I almost don’t know where to begin with this one… First you agree that religions are bad and that even God abhors them, then you go on to espouse the greatness of religious teachings. You don’t see the duplicity in that?

I believe you are confused between organized 'religion', and a 'relationship' with the one true God. The one who made us all. Religion is man made doctrines and theologies and rules and orders. And christianity as a religion has alot of that. So do other faiths. But a relationship with God without the organizations and denominations rules and regulations is what I am talking about. God's (not religious) teachings are kept in his word which he meant for mankind to read and understand on their own. He gave us the bible so that we could have a relationship with him, and know him. It is not his fault that mankind has distorted his teachings to meet their own personal desires.(this is what many christian denominations have done)

You believe that your faith says you have the right to deny others and that God has said this so it must be mans law? Well I’m sorry I think that is naïve, I just can’t say that two people that love each other can’t be together just because you think that is the way God wants it. Or that since you believe abortion is murder it gives you the right to tell a woman she does not have control over her own body. Just to clarify, I am a white heterosexual male – so I don’t have an agenda on either of those topics other than to do what I think is fair. As to the vote, you are correct that most people that voted on it agree that it is wrong but polls show that most ordinary people do not feel that way. The conservative base was successful in getting it’s people rallied up and most of them voted but they don’t have the numbers to sustain victory. Other states are moving in the “fair” direction on this and California will soon follow. I’m not saying all pro-lifers are raving lunatics like the guy in Kansas, but there are enough of them out there that your side should do more to stop yet they don’t.

Just what would you like us to do about someone who gets it in their head to kill someone? The craigs list killer went around killing women and there was no need to blame anyone but HIM. There was also nothing that anyone could do beforehand about it. Some people are just nuts. You can't change that.

Our founding fathers also thought slavery was a legitimate business enterprise, that only white males could vote, and that a woman’s place was at home in the kitchen serving dinner to her family, we have come to realize that all of those principles are wrong and our society has moved past them.

Our society has moved past those things, because they were wrong. There is no sin in being born a black person. Therefore our forefathers were doing wrong in holding them captive and that needed to be changed. There is no sin in being a woman, therefore they were doing wrong in keeping women at the stove, and that needed to be changed also. But there is wrong in having sex with the same sex. It does not need to be changed.

The country was not founded “on” Christian faith, but “by” mainly Christian men. Those men were nothing more or less than men today, they were fallible. Just because they were predominantly Christian should not mean that everything we do as a country should be based on Christian values.

See my replys above in dark print.

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I disagree with that. Everything that this country was founded upon had to do with the Christian faith. When the pilgrims landed on plymoth rock, they kissed the ground and praised God in Heaven for this new land. (Not Allah, or the Sun God or Buddah)It was Jesus. They gave him thanks. When the constitution was written, It was Ben Franklin who said that prayer should be offered up to God before every assembly. Again, the christian God. In every court room, the right hand is placed upon the bible to swear in the person to tell the truth. This is the christian bible. Our presidents all say "and may God bless America" after every speech. Not "And may Buddah or Allah bless America". It is 'In God we trust' that is written on our money. (That's the God, Jesus). And it is 'One Nation under God' that's written into our pledge of allegience. (Jesus again) I'm not saying that they were infallible. They were not. But this country was founded because mankind wanted to get away from the 'organized religion' (mainly the Roman church) that would not allow them to worship God freely and live according to what's in the bible only.

This country is falling away from the bible and it's truths as of late and if they continue to desire to live in sin instead of His way, you may see God turn his back on this country. God gives man what they want and along with it, the consequences.

[KartMan 58]

See my replys above in dark print.

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I disagree with that. Everything that this country was founded upon had to do with the Christian faith. When the pilgrims landed on plymoth rock, they kissed the ground and praised God in Heaven for this new land. (Not Allah, or the Sun God or Buddah)It was Jesus. They gave him thanks. When the constitution was written, It was Ben Franklin who said that prayer should be offered up to God before every assembly. Again, the christian God. In every court room, the right hand is placed upon the bible to swear in the person to tell the truth. This is the christian bible. Our presidents all say "and may God bless America" after every speech. Not "And may Buddah or Allah bless America". It is 'In God we trust' that is written on our money. (That's the God, Jesus). And it is 'One Nation under God' that's written into our pledge of allegience. (Jesus again) I'm not saying that they were infallible. They were not. But this country was founded because mankind wanted to get away from the 'organized religion' (mainly the Roman church) that would not allow them to worship God freely and live according to what's in the bible only.

This country is falling away from the bible and it's truths as of late and if they continue to desire to live in sin instead of His way, you may see God turn his back on this country. God gives man what they want and along with it, the consequences.

First of all the pilgrims were not the founders of this country, they were Europeans that travelled here to escape religious persecution at home. In fact, they felt they had to leave because religious beliefs they did not agree with were be forced on them by a government that was deeply influenced by religious dogma (sounds a little like what you want doesn’t it?). BTW, these same guys burned people at the stake in Salem for heresy, so they were bit hypocritical if you ask me.

The fathers of this country were sons of sons of those people who were driven more by the need to separate form a distant and unjust government than any sort of religious gratification. While many of the framers of the government were in fact religious (Christian to be more precise), the ideas of Thomas Jefferson were the loudest and most important and his message was included in the first amendment to the Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So what this means is that the government in no way can enforce laws that interfere with your belief in religion, by the same token it can not make laws based on your religion. Your statement that that God disagrees with abortion or homosexuality are simply not good enough reasons to make laws according to our constitution. In order for a law to be valid it has to stand up on its own merit, not on religious perspective.

[pattygreen 5]

First of all the pilgrims were not the founders of this country, they were Europeans that travelled here to escape religious persecution at home.

I understand that.

In fact, they felt they had to leave because religious beliefs they did not agree with were be forced on them by a government that was deeply influenced by religious dogma (sounds a little like what you want doesn’t it?)

Actually, they wanted to have the TRUTH. Not the 'organized' religion of the roman catholic church. The truth was the bible. (and ONLY the bible) They wanted to worship God in the way he outlined it in his word, not the way religions make their own rules and doctrines and hold people by force to them. So, no. I don't want that. I want what the founding Fathers wanted. A Christian Nation that lives by the good book.

BTW, these same guys burned people at the stake in Salem for heresy, so they were bit hypocritical if you ask me.

That's true. There are still christians today that do wrong. Look at the guy who killed a dr. in church because he performed abortions. Nuts. But what 'some' do doesn't discount truth. Alot of people say I won't be a christian because there are too many hypocrites in church. To that I would say what Jesus said," What is that to you? Follow me." In other words, let each man take care of his own soul. Don't look around at what others are doing, you do the right thing.

The fathers of this country were sons of sons of those people who were driven more by the need to separate form a distant and unjust government than any sort of religious gratification. While many of the framers of the government were in fact religious (Christian to be more precise), the ideas of Thomas Jefferson were the loudest and most important and his message was included in the first amendment to the Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So what this means is that the government in no way can enforce laws that interfere with your belief in religion, by the same token it can not make laws based on your religion. Your statement that that God disagrees with abortion or homosexuality are simply not good enough reasons to make laws according to our constitution. In order for a law to be valid it has to stand up on its own merit, not on religious perspective.

Jesus is Lord, A Worshipping Christian Family Please check out this link. I especially want you to read this part,

So, in 1947, the relatively simple First Amendment, whose purpose was to protect religion from government interference, has been "interrupted" to mean almost exactly the opposite! Now, according to Justice Black and the "majority" on the Supreme Court, government must be protected from religion, a view that is contrary to what the First Amendment declares and to what the Founding Fathers intended.

It almost seems as though the second part of the First Amendment's "religion clause" is completely ignored by the current judicial system.

"...prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Now based on what this statement says, the government cannot prohibit a person from professing their faith, praying or speaking about God, in either a public or private forum.

Edited June 3, 2009 by pattygreen

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

First of all the pilgrims were not the founders of this country, they were Europeans that travelled here to escape religious persecution at home. In fact, they felt they had to leave because religious beliefs they did not agree with were be forced on them by a government that was deeply influenced by religious dogma (sounds a little like what you want doesn’t it?). BTW, these same guys burned people at the stake in Salem for heresy, so they were bit hypocritical if you ask me.

The fathers of this country were sons of sons of those people who were driven more by the need to separate form a distant and unjust government than any sort of religious gratification. While many of the framers of the government were in fact religious (Christian to be more precise), the ideas of Thomas Jefferson were the loudest and most important and his message was included in the first amendment to the Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So what this means is that the government in no way can enforce laws that interfere with your belief in religion, by the same token it can not make laws based on your religion. Your statement that that God disagrees with abortion or homosexuality are simply not good enough reasons to make laws according to our constitution. In order for a law to be valid it has to stand up on its own merit, not on religious perspective.

Don't forget the Treaty with Tripoli:

US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

Also, many of the founding fathers were not even Christian:

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

[KartMan 58]

Jesus is Lord, A Worshipping Christian Family Please check out this link. I especially want you to read this part,

So, in 1947, the relatively simple First Amendment, whose purpose was to protect religion from government interference, has been "interrupted" to mean almost exactly the opposite! Now, according to Justice Black and the "majority" on the Supreme Court, government must be protected from religion, a view that is contrary to what the First Amendment declares and to what the Founding Fathers intended.

It almost seems as though the second part of the First Amendment's "religion clause" is completely ignored by the current judicial system.

"...prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Now based on what this statement says, the government cannot prohibit a person from professing their faith, praying or speaking about God, in either a public or private forum.

You are missing the point. The amendment (as correctly interpreted today) is intended to ensure that the government does not impose or interfere with ones right to their own religion (or lack of religion). While I personally have no use for your or any other religion, I strongly believe you and everyone else has a right to practice it (as long as it doesn’t infringe on others). I think that may be one of the key areas in which we differ. You seem to want this country to “return” to its “original” Christian roots at the expense of non-beliers and non-Christians. I believe religion has no place in public policy or in public forums. I do not see government stopping anyone from professing their fate, profess it all you want. Just don’t try to make laws based on it (banning gay marriage. preventing a woman’s right to choice, stopping stem cell research, etc.) or trying to force any religion on others (school prayer, teaching creationism, etc.).

The United States is a secular government made up of millions of citizens that just happen to be Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, non-believers, and just about every religion one can imagine. I think this diversity is a source of strength for us, not the end of days that you believe it to be. We should stay secular, in fact we should shed any of our current official ties to any one religion. How can we have a connection to one religion while not officially recognizing all religions? Obviously we can’t recognize them all so therefore we should not recognize any.

[KartMan 58]

Don't forget the Treaty with Tripoli:

US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

Also, many of the founding fathers were not even Christian:

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians

I’m willing to concede that many (certainly not all) of our founding fathers were Christian, in fact I’m fine with that. Even today many of our government leaders profess to Christian, I’m fine with that too. What I do like to stress though is that most of the founders and the majority of politicians today realize that religion (Christian or otherwise) has no place in public policy.

[pattygreen 5]

It's kind of like the english language. In this country, we speak english. All tongues are welcome here. We will not deny you your right to speak in any language you choose. Just don't try to make the original language, english, disappear. We will not accomodate other languages, meaning we're not going to change all our road signs so every language is represented, we won't put our laws in german or french, etc. If you want to live here, you need to learn english, or tolerate the language as best you can. This is what this country is all about. English.

(Substitute Christianity for English.)

[KartMan 58]

It's kind of like the english language. In this country, we speak english. All tongues are welcome here. We will not deny you your right to speak in any language you choose. Just don't try to make the original language, english, disappear. We will not accomodate other languages, meaning we're not going to change all our road signs so every language is represented, we won't put our laws in german or french, etc. If you want to live here, you need to learn english, or tolerate the language as best you can. This is what this country is all about. English.

(Substitute Christianity for English.)

Uh no, its not like that at all. Language is something people can adapt to, religion is not. It’s ludicrous to even make that insinuation. Besides, while English is in fact the common language of the country it is not the official language of the country and it never will be. Our government and people in general make accommodations for people that do not speak English and that will not stop any time soon.

With the beliefs that you are espousing, I have come to believe you are not only an insensitive religious zealot but potentially a racial bigot as well, I hope your god can forgive you for both because I surely can not.