There was a story on the news about this, and I thought it would be an iteresting debate. I am undecided.

I think a lot of religion was created to control people, especially to control women.

I think a lot of religion was created to control people, especially to control women.

If people were not so afraid to question their religion long enough to do a little research of the history of how their religion came to be, we'd have a WHOLE lot more atheists. ;o)

I, for one, researched how christianity came to be and how the bible was put together and found that the law of compound probabilities when applied to the 25 very specific predictions made by the old testament Prophets bearing on the betrayal, trial, death and burial of Jesus that was uttered by different prophets during the period from 1000 - 500 BC and ALL being literally fulfilled in 24 hours in one person is pretty convincing to me. According to the law of compound probabilities there was 1 chance in 33,554,432 that these predictions would be fulfilled as prophesied. If 1 prophet should make several predictions as to some 1 event, he might by collusion with others bring it to pass, but when a number of prophets, distributed over several centuries, give detailed and specific predictions as to some event, the charge of collusion can not be sustained. It is a fact that there were 109 predictions literally fulfilled at Christ's first coming in the flesh. Apply the law of compound probability to this number and the chance was only 1 in billions that they would be fulfilled in 1 peson.

I think a lot of religion was created to control people, especially to control women.

I believe that this is true. Certainly an examination of history will show that attitudes towards women have been unkind. In fact I have just bought a book on this subject - A Brief History of Misogny. The book is subtitled The World's Oldest Prejudice and it is written by Jack Holland. I haven't had time to read it yet but this is a subject that is close to my heart.

I was the eldest kid of three and a tomboy; when I saw my younger brothers getting more respect than myself I was plenty p!ssed off. This was during the 1950s. I saw my father's life as being much freer and more interesting than my mother's life as a housewife and mother and he was the one who received all the respect. I determined that I wanted to live like a man and was furious and heartbroken when I went into an early puberty. I got breasts and my period (and really bad menstrual cramps) when I was 10! Ugh!

Most folks are aware of the limitations placed on Muslim women by their men folks; though many of these restrictions are born of traditional practices and not required by the religious precepts, they are still an assault against the equality of women. Some imams teach that it is okay to discipline a fractious wife by smacking her. I have seen these lectures on the internet.

Jewish men give thanks to God that they were not born women. Married orthodox Jewish women wear itchy wigs in order not to tempt other men into sexual thoughts by revealing their crowning glory.

And women were burnt at the stick accused by the church of being witches. Divorce - the ability to leave an abusive or unsatisfactory marriage - is denied us by many religions.

It will be interesting to read what this book has to say on the topic.

The way I choose to live my life, is not detailed on a certain religion. I admittedly am not as well read or studied in religion as many, or most on this thread. I have no need to define myself as either being of a certain religion or lacking in and being an athiest, or even riding the line as an agnostic. I do feel that living with certain attitudes, that are most often described as christian attitudes, makes our lives and the lives of those around us better.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Living this way does not make me a Christian....it does make my life better. And makes me a better human in general.

I was lucky and grew up in a wonderful family, I was not abused, every effort was made to give me a great life. Therefore I do choose to honor my Father and my Mother. Because of what THEY did--not because of it being a commandment.

When you help others it in turn helps you. I do not believe in the same way as many, if not most people, but I am not going to distribute petitions saying they cannot salute the flag, or say a prayer before a high school football game. If I choose to sit in the stands and ask God to protect the kids on the field and watch over us as we drive home, that is my right as well.

There is a saying about how I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and find out there isn't than to live as tho there isn't and find out there is.

I pretty much agree with that. Living decently, and treating others well, not judging their belief or lack of, doing the right things as far as not stealing or harming others etc. it isn't hurting me, and it makes the world around me a better place to be.

Kat

I totally agree with you, Kat. I also believe that living with certain attitudes makes life so much better, for us as well as those around us.

Although I can understand why some are athiests, I do not agree with some athiests wanting to take prayer and God out of everything.

Unfortunately, a lot of people today still see women as unequal. My husband even thinks that women should still wear dresses all the time because it makes us more godly and closer to God!!!!!

I, for one, researched how christianity came to be and how the bible was put together and found that the law of compound probabilities when applied to the 25 very specific predictions made by the old testament Prophets bearing on the betrayal, trial, death and burial of Jesus that was uttered by different prophets during the period from 1000 - 500 BC and ALL being literally fulfilled in 24 hours in one person is pretty convincing to me. According to the law of compound probabilities there was 1 chance in 33,554,432 that these predictions would be fulfilled as prophesied. If 1 prophet should make several predictions as to some 1 event, he might by collusion with others bring it to pass, but when a number of prophets, distributed over several centuries, give detailed and specific predictions as to some event, the charge of collusion can not be sustained. It is a fact that there were 109 predictions literally fulfilled at Christ's first coming in the flesh. Apply the law of compound probability to this number and the chance was only 1 in billions that they would be fulfilled in 1 peson.

HAHAHA! Right, so IOW you have never researched how xtianity came to be. You just made that bloody obvious.

Why do you always respond to things people did not ask and then ignore what they did?

Seems to be a trend with you, that and preaching.

I do feel that living with certain attitudes, that are most often described as christian attitudes, makes our lives and the lives of those around us better.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

But... what does this mentality have to do with xtianity? I mean, if xtians invented the concept then I would understand your point but these concepts existed long before xtianity. This isn't a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg. When it comes to basic rules for any civil society and the xtian religion we know which came first and it was not xtianty.

I guess I get a bit annoyed when people credit xtianity, of all religions, with proper behavior in society. Historically, that religion has not been known for nice behaviors, quite the opposite.

I totally agree with you, Kat. I also believe that living with certain attitudes makes life so much better, for us as well as those around us.

Although I can understand why some are athiests, I do not agree with some athiests wanting to take prayer and God out of everything.

What many atheists and non atheists want is not prayer removed from schools and gov't, we want forced prayer removed. If your child wants to pray to himself before a test, nobody is suggesting otherwise. If your child wants to use a classroom after school hours to invite his friends for worship, bible study, or prayer, people are cool with that. What people are NOT cool with is the school forcing another child to participate. For the life of me I can't figure out what is wrong with this.

With trends going as they are and people leaving the xtian faith at record rates, people from other cultures moving to the US and bringing their non xtian religions with them the time is coming when xtianity will no longer be the majority religion. Are you *sure* you want the gov't cramming religion down our collective throats? Are you *sure* you want forced prayer in schools? Prayer in schools is permitted, FORCED prayer is not. If trends continue as they are, and there is no reason to believe they won't, it may not be xtianity that your child is forced to practice in public schools. If the xtians pushing for prayer in school had a clue they would realize it would behoove them to insist that they teach their own children religion vs. insisting the gov't push it from all angles.

Unfortunately, a lot of people today still see women as unequal. My husband even thinks that women should still wear dresses all the time because it makes us more godly and closer to God!!!!!

Wha...??

Omg, tell him you ought to run around nekkid because that's how God made ya. :w00t:

What many atheists and non atheists want is not prayer removed from schools and gov't, we want forced prayer removed. If your child wants to pray to himself before a test, nobody is suggesting otherwise. If your child wants to use a classroom after school hours to invite his friends for worship, bible study, or prayer, people are cool with that. What people are NOT cool with is the school forcing another child to participate. For the life of me I can't figure out what is wrong with this.

That may be true for some, but not all.

I specifically remember how atheists were trying to eliminate prayer before a football game somewhere, and the general public got so ticked that they did it anyway against a rule that they would no longer do it.

There are some that act as if the mere hearing of a prayer will make them melt like the Wicked Witch of the West. A select few dictate what the majority are to do because they are too "offended" to hear or see something.

I know of many other cases where nothing was forced on anybody, but certain individuals made it where NOBODY could partake because THEY were offended.

I think that stinks to high heaven and should not be allowed. However, we are in an age where the few are appeased at the cost of the many. So much for tolerance. :w00t:

What many atheists and non atheists want is not prayer removed from schools and gov't, we want forced prayer removed. If your child wants to pray to himself before a test, nobody is suggesting otherwise. If your child wants to use a classroom after school hours to invite his friends for worship, bible study, or prayer, people are cool with that. What people are NOT cool with is the school forcing another child to participate. For the life of me I can't figure out what is wrong with this.

With trends going as they are and people leaving the xtian faith at record rates, people from other cultures moving to the US and bringing their non xtian religions with them the time is coming when xtianity will no longer be the majority religion. Are you *sure* you want the gov't cramming religion down our collective throats? Are you *sure* you want forced prayer in schools? Prayer in schools is permitted, FORCED prayer is not. If trends continue as they are, and there is no reason to believe they won't, it may not be xtianity that your child is forced to practice in public schools. If the xtians pushing for prayer in school had a clue they would realize it would behoove them to insist that they teach their own children religion vs. insisting the gov't push it from all angles.

I agree with you, no one should be forced to pray. That isn't what I meant at all. If during a moment of silence or a prayer at a football game, if some one chooses not to pray, that is fine, in fact, I wouldn't want it forced. That is just controlling people.

What many atheists and non atheists want is not prayer removed from schools and gov't, we want forced prayer removed. If your child wants to pray to himself before a test, nobody is suggesting otherwise. If your child wants to use a classroom after school hours to invite his friends for worship, bible study, or prayer, people are cool with that. What people are NOT cool with is the school forcing another child to participate. For the life of me I can't figure out what is wrong with this.

That may be true for some, but not all.

I specifically remember how atheists were trying to eliminate prayer before a football game somewhere, and the general public got so ticked that they did it anyway against a rule that they would no longer do it.

There are some that act as if the mere hearing of a prayer will make them melt like the Wicked Witch of the West. A select few dictate what the majority are to do because they are too "offended" to hear or see something.

I know of many other cases where nothing was forced on anybody, but certain individuals made it where NOBODY could partake because THEY were offended.

I think that stinks to high heaven and should not be allowed. However, we are in an age where the few are appeased at the cost of the many. So much for tolerance. :w00t:

What the laws say and what "some" do ... do you see the same difference here that I do? Wouldn't that be a bit like saying "some" Christians hate atheists so there ya go for Christian tolerance?

I don't care about individual cases, I care about the laws. No matter what the law there will be some who do not follow it. If they do not follow it, push the issue.

And why the heck would you pray before a game anyway? What good will it do? If you pray for the players not to be injured and your God's plan was for someone to be injured, you think he's going to change his entire plan so you can get your request? I thought your god knew everything that was going to happen before it happens. If he changes his mind on his universe plan based on the fact that you asked him to, doesn't that blow the "all knowing" stuff your God claims?

What if it was a bunch of Satan worshipers that were demanding they pray to THEIR god before a game, would you be so angry that atheists don't want to hear that either?

I fixed the quote for you. At the 2nd quote you need a "/" in front of he quote. ;o) I think I fixed it, we'll see.

BTW, it's not just atheists that don't want prayer, religion, and gawd shoved down our collective throats. Many Christians feel the same.

Edited January 25, 200917 yr by WASaBubbleButt

That may be true for some, but not all.

I specifically remember how atheists were trying to eliminate prayer before a football game somewhere, and the general public got so ticked that they did it anyway against a rule that they would no longer do it.

There are some that act as if the mere hearing of a prayer will make them melt like the Wicked Witch of the West. A select few dictate what the majority are to do because they are too "offended" to hear or see something.

I know of many other cases where nothing was forced on anybody, but certain individuals made it where NOBODY could partake because THEY were offended.

I think that stinks to high heaven and should not be allowed. However, we are in an age where the few are appeased at the cost of the many. So much for tolerance. :w00t:

I agree with you. While some atheists don't want our beliefs forced on them, some see no problem with forcing their beliefs on us. That's like some wanting "In God we trust" removed from the dollar bill. It has always been there, if someone doesn't want to read it, then they don't have to. I believe this country was founded on the belief in God and Jesus. You can read it in the constitution. I also think that most americans believe in God and Jesus in some way or another. I heard something on the radio the other day that was interesting. If most of us are believers, then why do we just sit around and not do anything about God being taken out of everything just to please atheists, when most of us are believers. It makes you think.