IF the economy is the #1 issue in America why would you vote for McCain? He stated not long ago (Sept 15,2008) that the fundamentals of our economy is good:blink:. Seriously? Then just today or yesterday, he said the problem with the economy is corporate greed and would have a commission (much like the like 9/11 commission) study it. WTF?! So basically he is saying he doesn't want to deal with the economy! AND lets not forget his TOP economic advisor stated just a few months ago in JUNE/JULY of THIS year that there was nothing wrong with our economy and that the American people were a bunch of "whiners". Does this sound like a person who is for the people? It is just infuriating to me that this race has become "tight"! I mean it's pretty bad when Karl Rove says the McCain campaign is lying and running a bad campaign!! UGH I will never understand what people see in McCain!

But if someone EARNS..key word...1m a year, why should they have to give up half of that money? THEY made it.

WOW where the heck are you getting this information??...I've seen it happen! So please don't insinuate that the military life is easy or we have some sort of money trees here. For the service my husband, myself, and others have given to this country, it's insulting! Especially since you have no idea what you are talking about! I have been military affiliated for 11 years so I DO know what I'm talking about!

Well, it depends on what information you're talking about. The pay information comes from two cousins and a good friend who are active military (two Army, one Navy), as well as the information listed on the military.com benefits site (though their information actually reflects higher comp than what I mentioned). If you're talking about the other information I posted, it comes 18 years as part of an active military family, and about 12 years as part of a retired military family, knowing what my active military family and friends experience, etc.

Also our housing allowance is only given to us if we live off base and in MOST cases does not cover rent/house payment + insurance+utilities. And I can tell you since I do live in base housing you are expected to maintain the house yourself to include the yard. It works much like a rental. However, more and more base housing is going privitized and is not run by the government but by a company contracted through the government. We do not pay for utilities such as electric or water but do pay for cable and phone. It is a good thing we don't have to pay for housing because what my husband brings home a paycheck we couldn't survive if we had to.

Why do you present things like having to take care of your own yard as such a hardship? (And I never said housing allowance was given when you lived on base. It makes sense that it wouldn't be - we didn't need an allowance to pay for something that was free.) I don't think I contested any of this. We were (and should have been) expected to maintain our free yard when we lived in housing. I mean - yeah. Not hard to do when water was free, we were provided a free lawnmower (granted it was the spinning razor push type, but it was useable), and we could even borrow sprinklers from the... forget what it was called, same place from which we could borrow broadcast spreaders, same place that would provide seed/fertilizer if we needed it, etc. (Drawing a total blank but it was the same building people would go to to get the free bread, cheese, peanut butter, etc.) This is going to vary by state and time of year, but right now my electric + water bill is hitting about $510 a month. Not having to pay those would be significant. Cable is optional. Phone is arguably optional, but doesn't cost anywhere near $510. I'd just pay phone + cable over mortgage + electric + water + maintenance + repairs etc. in a heartbeat if I had the choice. Yes, you give up freedoms for free housing (at least we did) but they weren't huge comparatively. We couldn't hang more than one thing on a given wall, couldn't renovate or remodel, we couldn't paint whatever color we wanted to (we could put down carpet, but we had to remove it when we left the house). But when our roof caved in we were put in a hotel and it was fixed free of charge. Exterior painting & other maintenances were free. As a homeowner, I know which I'd prefer.

Now to mention our free healthcare it's free as long as you use military run facilities or are "approved" through tricare to be seen by a civilian.

Yeah, free healthcare. Just like I said.

And lets not forget as an active duty military person you can be notified TODAY that you will be deploying for Iraq TOMORROW!! I've seen it happen!

Yes, and I've experienced it happen. Maybe that's note as valid as seeing it? Dunno. Not Iraq, but deployment without warning (and families torn apart for 9+ months at a time, including mine). When I was in active military family there was no charge for uniforms. Not that I remember, perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly, or perhaps something has changed since then. Entirely possible, it has been a while.

So please don't insinuate that the military life is easy or we have some sort of money trees here. For the service my husband, myself, and others have given to this country, it's insulting! Especially since you have no idea what you are talking about! I have been military affiliated for 11 years so I DO know what I'm talking about!

I didn't say it was easy. I would never say that military life is an easy life, especially knowing what it did to me and my family. In fact, I say quite the opposite and always have. But not in financial terms. My belief and my experience is that financially, enlisted do have it "easier" than civilian, in terms of financial responsibilities. If I insinuated anything it's that an abnormally large number of military families seem to have financial problems when you compare them to civilian families making similar incomes, paying more in cost of living.

That sounds better than Obama's plan: universal health care paid for by taxpayers.

The whole universal healthcare thing gets me. It's one of few issues I'm on the fence about. I can't help but think that we (unofficially) already have free healthcare. In a manner of speaking. Anyone can walk into an ER and be treated. If I was poor, had no insurance, and something happened to me (cold, broken leg, paper cut, amputation... doesn't matter) that's exactly what I would do. And it happens ALL the time. And by doing it, I'm raising the cost for the next guy who has private insurance and is already paying a $150 copay. So are we better off paying for it as part of an organized system, where we know what we're paying, or are we better off paying for it indirectly through higher premiums, higher cost of treatment, reduced benefits, etc? It's a very difficult question to answer (for me anyway!).

Does anyone know what makes a person "middle class" when it comes to combine salary? Does it vary state to state?

So many resources and people define it in so many ways. Sometimes it's an earnings figure, sometimes it's a standard of living, sometimes it's personal characteristics such as education, etc. Census data uses quintiles, and I've also seen the third quintile used to bracket "middle class." Quintile salary definitions change annually, so even by this standard there wouldn't be a set definition. Historical Income Tables - Income Equality (doesn't include recent years) American middle class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (See "Academic Models" section in particular)

I can't help but think that we (unofficially) already have free healthcare. Anyone can walk into an ER and be treated.

Well, yes and no. The law is that everybody that comes into an ER has to be evaluated. Treatment is not mandatory for non life-threatening situations (a woman going into labor is the exception).

But otherwise, yes. I see it all the time. My hospital's ER is constantly deluged by emergencies such as nausea, cough, foot pain, etc. We had to, by necessity, institute some strategies to control the flow of humanity.

You know I really think the problem with people these days is greed! Some of you have stated there are these people who live off the government without working and why should someone who makes more pay out more in taxes, etc. This is really disheartening to me as an American. My husband is in the Air Force and I am a veteran myself, I have seen lots of families on government programs like foodstamps and wic. It is incredulous the view some of you have about people on government assistance. Do I think that there are people out there who abuse the system? Yes of course but how can we do away with the system when there are MORE people who genuinely need the help? Reform it, yes but do away with it NO.

Maybe we need to make college more financially available to people of ALL incomes, which in my opinion would help with abuse of government assistance. Which by the way is what Obama plans to do!

I don't disagree that education should be available and affordable but we need to be careful on how we provide that education.

I grew up in a low income area. Many of the people in my hometown are hard working but struggle and have needed welfare from time to time, my mother included. But several are also career welfare. I don't think there is anything wrong with welfare helping people until they can make it on their own but it is not meant to be a lifetime situation.

There are many examples in my hometown but one comes to mind after reading your idea of making college more financially available. This couple has had seven children and raised them all on welfare. Like many others, he knows how to work the system and gets heating assistance, utility discounts, housing, a car to get back and forth appointments and five of his seven children got to go to college on Welfares dime. Four of those five children have finished college, none are working, one is a drug addict and a thief, the others all have multiple children and are on welfare likely to be carreer welfare just like their parents. One daughter grew up with my sister, both wanted to be teachers my sister is now teaching at a college and paying off her loans herself because my mom couldn't pay for her college. Meanwhile her friend had a welfare paid education and is on her fifth child while living off welfare.

Those are the types of welfare people I have a problem with.

I work in a hospital and I see abuse of the system EVERYDAY. Then I get people that really need it and have problems getting help.

I don't think there is anything wrong with welfare helping people until they can make it on their own but it is not meant to be a lifetime situation.

I'm not a fan of welfare (as it exists right now) but this is very true. Welfare is very misunderstood, by recipients as well as non. (Unfortunately I hear a lot more about gas prices around the candidates than I do things like welfare reform). food stamps - one of the worst abuses out there. Again, this is anecdotal and limited to my state, but about 90% of people on food stamps think it is there to purchase their groceries. It's there to subsidize what a bunch of calculations and formulas have determined you should be contributing to your grocery bill, so that you and your children can have healthier, more nutritious food than what you might otherwise be able to buy. It is not intended to carry the grocery bill for the entire family (hence W-I-C). Dad, feed yourself. Incidentally, here is my state's current WIC list. I don't necessarily agree with everything allowed, but at least they're starting to get more serious about narrowing the scope, enforcing generics, etc.

And as an aside... Jack -- what types of situations were you responsible for investigating?

I don't like welfare abuse, but if paying for abuse means children eat, I'm okay with that. Let's face it--these people who are getting food stamps and medicaid while driving Escalades and carrying Coach purses are going to still drive Escalades and carry Coach purses while their children starve and suffer. If they'll abuse the welfare system, it isn't likely they'll step up and care for their children otherwise. Plus, when you tighten the system, you are going to leave out a lot of people who don't abuse it but have no other way to make it. I'm also okay with paying more taxes if need be, probably because I have been there and needed help for a few months when my husband lost his job and I had just delivered a premature baby with a 1 yr old at home. We work hard now, but we also worked hard then.

Of course, I'm just a tree-hugging hippie liberal.

Well, it depends on what information you're talking about. The pay information comes from two cousins and a good friend who are active military (two Army, one Navy), as well as the information listed on the military.com benefits site (though their information actually reflects higher comp than what I mentioned). If you're talking about the other information I posted, it comes 18 years as part of an active military family, and about 12 years as part of a retired military family, knowing what my active military family and friends experience, etc.Why do you present things like having to take care of your own yard as such a hardship? (And I never said housing allowance was given when you lived on base. It makes sense that it wouldn't be - we didn't need an allowance to pay for something that was free.) I don't think I contested any of this. We were (and should have been) expected to maintain our free yard when we lived in housing. I mean - yeah. Not hard to do when Water was free, we were provided a free lawnmower (granted it was the spinning razor push type, but it was useable), and we could even borrow sprinklers from the... forget what it was called, same place from which we could borrow broadcast spreaders, same place that would provide seed/fertilizer if we needed it, etc. (Drawing a total blank but it was the same building people would go to to get the free bread, cheese, Peanut Butter, etc.) This is going to vary by state and time of year, but right now my electric + water bill is hitting about $510 a month. Not having to pay those would be significant. Cable is optional. Phone is arguably optional, but doesn't cost anywhere near $510. I'd just pay phone + cable over mortgage + electric + water + maintenance + repairs etc. in a heartbeat if I had the choice. Yes, you give up freedoms for free housing (at least we did) but they weren't huge comparatively. We couldn't hang more than one thing on a given wall, couldn't renovate or remodel, we couldn't paint whatever color we wanted to (we could put down carpet, but we had to remove it when we left the house). But when our roof caved in we were put in a hotel and it was fixed free of charge. Exterior painting & other maintenances were free. As a homeowner, I know which I'd prefer. :biggrin: Yeah, free healthcare. Just like I said. Yes, and I've experienced it happen. Maybe that's note as valid as seeing it? Dunno. Not Iraq, but deployment without warning (and families torn apart for 9+ months at a time, including mine). When I was in active military family there was no charge for uniforms. Not that I remember, perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly, or perhaps something has changed since then. Entirely possible, it has been a while. I didn't say it was easy. I would never say that military life is an easy life, especially knowing what it did to me and my family. In fact, I say quite the opposite and always have. But not in financial terms. My belief and my experience is that financially, enlisted do have it "easier" than civilian, in terms of financial responsibilities. If I insinuated anything it's that an abnormally large number of military families seem to have financial problems when you compare them to civilian families making similar incomes, paying more in cost of living.

First of all your facts are wrong! I think your "friends" are exaggerating to you on how much they make and I don't what pay chart you are looking at but you might want to make sure you are looking at ENLISTED and not OFFICER pay, there is a big difference! And note that is base pay and doesn't include the taxes being taken out and other fees for dental insurance and life insurance and other things. The self-help store you are referring to is soon going away when eventually ALL of base housing will go privitized. I'm NOT trying to make it seem military life is a hardship, but I get really pissed when someone like YOU makes it seem as if we live in the lap of luxury and don't pay for anything! IF my husband had this job as a civilian his salary would be TWICE what he is paid currently and that is MORE than what it costs the military to house us! Think about that!

Another thing about uniforms, YOU ARE WRONG buddy! When you enlist you are issued uniforms in basic training after that you are given a yearly clothing allowance based on your paygrade. Talk to any REAL military member that is getting the appropriate gear and they will tell you their clothing allowance does not cover a years worth of uniforms and everything that goes into them. They charge for uniforms at clothing sales store on base. You also have to pay for your PT uniform! There is a military spouses group on LBT take look and ask anyone of them if you don't believe me! UGH, it never ceases to amaze me what SOME people think about how it is to be military.

Edited September 18, 200817 yr by cobrien78

Here we go...lets all do a write in. I'd vote for him

I HAVE DECIDED TO BECOME A WRITE-IN CANDIDATE.

HERE IS MY PLATFORM:

(1) 'Press 1 for English' is immediately banned. English is the official language; speak it or wait at the border until you can.

(2) We will immediately go into a two year isolationist posture to straighten out the country's attitude. NO imports, no exports. We will use the '

Wal-Mart

' policy, 'If we ain't got it, you don't need it.'

(3) When imports are allowed, there will be a 100% import tax on it.

(4) All retired military personnel will be required to man one of our many observation towers on the southern border. (six month tour) They will be under strict orders not to fire on

SOUTHBOUND

aliens.

(5) Social security will immediately return to its original state. If you didn't put nuttin' in, you ain't gettin nuttin' out. The president nor any other politician will not be able to touch it.

(6) Welfare-Checks will be handed out on Fridays at the end of the 40 hour school week and the successful completion of urinalysis and a passing grade.

(7) Professional Athletes -- Steroids -- The FIRST time you check positive you're banned for life.

(8) Crime - We will adopt the Turkish method, the first time you steal, you lose your right hand. There are no more life sentences. If convicted, you will be put to death by the same method you chose for your victim: gun, knife, strangulation, etc.

(9) One export will be allowed: Wheat. The world needs to eat. A bushel of wheat will be the exact price of a barrel of oil.

(10) All foreign aid using American taxpayer money will immediately cease and the saved money will pay off the national debt and ultimately lower taxes. When disasters occur around the world, we'll ask the American people if they want to donate to a disaster fund and each citizen can make the decision whether it's a worthy cause.

(11) The Pledge of Allegiance will be said every day at school and every day in Congress.

(12) The National Anthem will be played at all appropriate ceremonies, sporting events, outings, etc.

Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes but a vote for me will get you better than what you have and better than what you're gonna get. Thanks for listening and remember to write in my name on the ballot in November.

God Bless America !!!!!!!!!!!

Bill Cosby!!!!!!!!

Please Forward This to Everyone you know no matter which side of the fence they're on.

Jack - certainly it does. I was just interested in what you had experienced. Being under a social work label, I wasn't sure what type of investigations you would run. (E.g. I know a few social workers who actually investigate social work cases such as child welfare, but I also know some who investigate internal and process compliance). It's just an area I"ev always found interesting. :biggrin:

So many resources and people define it in so many ways. Sometimes it's an earnings figure, sometimes it's a standard of living, sometimes it's personal characteristics such as education, etc. Census data uses quintiles, and I've also seen the third quintile used to bracket "middle class." Quintile salary definitions change annually, so even by this standard there wouldn't be a set definition. Historical Income Tables - Income Equality (doesn't include recent years) American middle class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (See "Academic Models" section in particular)

I had a hard time myself with the "financial" definition. Only because our candidates make points that the middle class will get this and that but does anyone know if they fall into that category or not? I need specifics when someone tells me something and if they're specifically targeting the middle class don't we need know what defines it?

My husband and I are both college-educated professionals who have never been on welfare and both of us lost our jobs during the GW Bush regime. I've watched our standard of living go down and retirement funds erode through the lousy economy. It's time to get the Republicans out and let someone else have a shot. McCain might have been viable a few years ago, but I'm too afraid he'll croak during his first term and I certainly don't want the Queen of Alaska as my president. Being a small-town mayor and small-state (in terms of population) governor does not necessarily give you much "executive" experience. Her degree is in journalism -- a rather worthless degree in the long run, speaking as someone who has one -- and hers wasn't even from a very good j-school.