self esteem

brandyII · June 20, 2008

Jachut,

I think you and I maybe polar opposites, we are in theory and probably geographically as well! It's okay I know I piss the heck out of you! I not familiar with the phrase "utter twaddle" but I'm assuming it's similar to what bulls do when they take a poop!

This is a Mental Health and Lap Band Life thread, part of a Social Group and not the Rant and Raves Section, just thought I'd remind you of that in case you didn't know.

We're all very complicated people and some people here are still considered "obese" so maybe all the "get off your fat ass" stuff maybe a bit humiliating and hurtful in our eyes. It is in mine so I'm sure I'm not alone in that feeling.

Is it wrong to interact with others here who also may have low self esteems because of their weight issues to try to get beyond it and feel better about ourselves during our weight loss journeys? Are we only allowed to feel good about ourselves once we've gotten off our fat asses and stopped watching TV and eating bon bons and lost that extra weight? I'm sorry but that's screwed up and we do not need to feel like dirt just because of our size. And I find it insulting that someone would be that critical of fat people who once was fat herself admittedly. You may have disliked yourself but we do not have to hate ourselves just because we are fat!!!

Does it bother you that I haven't lost enough weight yet by your standards but still have a lap band but am trying to survive my life day to day and am discussing various topics on this forum? Why does one person upset you so much?

You seem to have taken a very militant way of losing weight for yourself and almost remind me of a Marine Corp Sergeant barking out commands at times. You still needed the lap band to use as your tool and it worked for you and your whole approach as you've stated has made you the woman you are today, a much thinner, stronger, healthier person and that's wonderful but don't assume your approach works for everyone! I've never said it was easy for your either, just that it has worked for you.

I tend to believe that obesity is a bit more complicated than you wish to believe. You yourself know that a person your age, sex, weight who has never been overweight maybe able to take in more calories than you and not gain. I am not a doctor but I know that weight loss is more difficult for some people, (God I know it wasn't easy for you either!) and we cannot discount that fact!

I don't know why you always turn this into a war between "THIN and FAT" with you. I'm sure if you need statistics I could go there on the benefits that thin people have always had over fat people but I think it's fairly obvious. Fat people deserve as much dignity and happiness as anyone else in our world. Do you disagree with that statement and personally do you actually hate fat people and find them disgusting because I'm getting that vibe from you? Do you really think the thin people in our society are getting the shaft???

Not every fat person is an addict. Some maybe but not all! And there are those who don't even believe food is an addictive source like alcohol or drugs are. There are many factors that can affect one's weight. Having obese parents, being obese from childhood to name a few, your situation is a bit different or am I wrong, you did say you didn't gain weight until you had children. I don't think you understand the minds of obese people and tend to be a bit too judgmental with us.

Anyway I'm not trying to be your enemy but do resent the fact that you have to attack me when I'm trying to build up my self esteem and help others also. I don't believe we have to wait until we're thin to have it, sorry brandyII.:confused_smile:

Hadassah · June 20, 2008

Not really

Jachut · June 20, 2008

Anyway I'm not trying to be your enemy but do resent the fact that you have to attack me when I'm trying to build up my self esteem and help others also. I don't believe we have to wait until we're thin to have it, sorry brandyII.:confused_smile:

Ah, didnt I just say that? I believe my exact words were:

Our self esteem improves the minute we start this journey, to face the behaviours, make the decision to change them and take positive steps towards doing so is good for the soul. The excitement and pride in people's words as they see the first pounds go, its amazing. Goal weight is irrelevant to the self esteem that comes from behaving differently.

Not really sure where you get the idea that this is about fat or thin, I simply said my self esteem improved when I quite behaving in a way I found slovenly. Why that's so offensive to you I dont quite know. Can you show me an obese person who doesnt overeat? Can you show me one who does and feels great about it?

You make a good point about this being on a mental health board. I unreservedly apologise for that. I hit "new posts", I never check where I am. This forum does not function well like that. You dont ask for such stringent disagreement unless you're in Rants n Raves.

I think it would be best for both of us if I could summon up enough willpower to block your posts (but I dont think I can!). I cannot not react to you. I just cant help it. Your self justifications are just too intriguing. There's being kind to yourself, I agree with that, I even agree with the not dieting and just trying to find balance bit, but every word you say contradicts it. You dont piss me off, I dont dislike you or even know you. You fascinate me. I sit here with my mouth open, in disbelief.

I must set the record straight. I was 5ft 10 at 12 years old. I was always heavy, not obese but big and unfeminine. I know what it is to be a physical freak. I carried that baggage into adulthood. In Australia, where super obesity or even morbid obesity is much rarer, I certainly know what it is to be the biggest woman in the room.

Anyway, I promise, if I cant stay out of it, I really will think about blocking your posts so I cant bother you any more. In the meantime, I cannot promise I wont be reading, but I'll try to hold my tongue.

Edited June 20, 2008 by Jachut

brandyII · June 20, 2008

BrandyII, why cant we simply face this issue? Why do we always have to talk around it? Why cant we "go there"?
I dont think it bothers most people. We're here because we have thought about these issues and decided we want to change behaviours that are destructive to our happiness and health. We're here becuase we've taken the very brave and confronting step of having surgery which will just about ensure that some of those self defeating but very comfortable habits are going to be blown out of the Water. That's the scariest thing of all about getting banded!

I did NOT just intimate that everyone here is a fat lazy goodfornothing slob. And most people know that. I did NOT make derogatory remarks about fat people, I made remarks about certain negative behaviours which many of us share and do not find conducive to good self esteem. What we all have in common here is overeating and underexercising AND the fact that those behaviours have not made us happy. Furthermore we are all here becuase we want to change.

So I fail to see how stating that is derogatory or offensive.

Our self esteem improves the minute we start this journey, to face the behaviours, make the decision to change them and take positive steps towards doing so is good for the soul. The excitement and pride in people's words as they see the first pounds go, its amazing. Goal weight is irrelevant to the self esteem that comes from behaving differently.

Not go there? Its the first place we need to go!

This time I'll quote you since you edited out most of your original post:lol:

What issue can't we face, the fact that we're not allowed to have self esteem because we are obese? I'm not sure what issue you're referring to.

I agree we have or will or may contemplate getting the band and it was a major decision after years of failed dieting. This has nothing to do with having self esteem during our banding phase does it?

Well since you've edited out your original post I can't share with others about your feelings of fat people but I'm sure I could locate them somewhere else if you'd like. You are making assumptions that we all overeat and we all under exercise and you have no idea!!! You have a very elementary point of view of obesity in my opinion and it's reflected in many of your posts.

What behaviors are you speaking of that are not conducive to having "good self esteem"? I ate a piece of chocolate cake so I should have no self esteem? There is nothing wrong with people having self esteem now, do you think it comes automatically when you reach 125 pounds. It's something that people who are obese deserve as much as a 125 pound person. I just don't understand why you don't think people who are obese are allowed to have self esteem. brandyII.:confused_smile:

Jachut,

Ok, found your "original" post and made a copy of the one you edited out. Left in spelling errors in order to quote you precisely, good thing I did transcription for 7 years!

"BrandyII I've tried so hard to be respectful of you, to understand your issues but honestly, you're the dizzy limit! Why cant we simply face this issue? Why do we always have to talk around it? Why cant we "go there"?

Is it because we're all too delicate to hear it. Shhhhh, must be politically correct around people who are obese?

Must we concoct stories about how its not their fault, its their genes, its the bad food in society, so lets all sue McDonalds. How on earth is that helpful?

Did every single thin person out there have a perfect childhood, and nobody here did so THAT's the reason? Except me of course coz I havent been fat all my life so what would I know?

I've got a novel idea? Maybe we all ATE too much. Maybe we did it because it was our choice to and it felt good so stuff the consequences. Maybe we all sat on our bums and didn't exercise because that was a bit much like hard work and afterall we have lives, jobs and kids so we dont have time right? And maybe, when we're too fat to exercise without injury, we can use that as an excuse and conveniently ignore the fact that we didn't do it when we could and that's how we got to this place?

Maybe the thin people dont have lives, jobs and kids so they have the time to look after themselves. Because of course, nobody thin ever gets depression, ever had tragedies in their lives, ever got abused as childeren. So that's allright, because they're different, the fact that they look after themselves and we dont doesn't reflect badly on us does it?

No.... wouldnt work. That requires taking responsibility for our own actions. Better not say it, might offend somebody. Much better to lie to ourselves instead, blame it on the metabolism, the fast food companies, our mother's insistence that we clean our pl

This self destructive behaviour is not easy to break, there's many complex reasons why we do it and its exceptionally difficult when its due to behaviours learned in childhood. When you get too heavy to exercise comfortably, that's an even harder problem. Its not black and white, not at all, but there's no magic to it. Life makes it tough, and heck, I'm not saying I'm above that, I fell victim to it as well. Its insidious, it creeps in without you realising it and you think shit, where did THAT 50lb come from?

I'm sorry you dont like my tell it like it is approach. I dont mean to offend anyone with it, not in the least, but honestly, if you cant even take the first step of admitting your behaviour needs to be changed, then sorry, but there's little point starting the journey. I know there's plenty on this board who will know exactly what I"m saying

Not go there? Its the FIRST place we need to go!

************"

Edited June 20, 2008 by brandyII
Jachut edited out her original post so I reposted it!

brandyII · June 20, 2008

Sorry Jachut but I don't like responding to a post and then having you actually remove the whole thing and replace it with a totally new one so I had to type it up, hope I did you justice, brandyII.:smile:

Jachut · June 20, 2008

Oh, golly, I'm failing already. I have to have the last word! I should have closed this thread before I went out but its just there taunting me.

I dont believe in taking things private and attacking people by PM so I'll say it here.

Brandy, grow up. I removed that post precisely because I realised it was too strongly worded, well before you'd replied to it. And I did it without any catty little notes on the bottom.

its never been about fat or thin to me. I dont care about the size of someone's body. There's some awesome people here, people who are strong, determined, who face challenges and do their darndest. You know, they're not all thin either - actually since I've never met them, I really cant form opinions of them based on how they look can I?. They're just genuinely interesting, smart, efficient people. Then there's wimpy excuse making whiners, ahem, like yourself.

I'm sorry to bust your bubble my dear. Your continuing insistence to view this as a fat or thin issue is simply another manifestation of your inability to face your issues. You cannot accept that I just plain think you're an ineffective personality, so you must turn it into I dont like you because you're fat.

Sorry also that you appear not to be able to read. I think I said that being fat and having self esteem were not mutually exclusive. Or is that too many big words for you?

You come here, ask for advice and then turn petulant when the opinions dont justify your own self delusions. Its exactly like the thread in R&R, all hunky dory whilst people are saying "poor baby, its not your fault" and then all claws when someone disagrees. When you put yourself out there, you get all sorts of opinion back. Mine included.

I think my original post was quite appropriate, despite me not knowing what forum I was in. It need not have caused any debate. It wasnt desgned to. But because it challenged your precarious view of the world with you as helpless victim, it turned bad.

Get some help, seriously.

mstrina27 · June 20, 2008

Well I think u really have to love yourself first in order to be able to make any kind of change. No matter what it may be. I love me, and I know I am a :shades_smile:SHOW STOPPER....:smile:...LOL I want to be able to wear all of the pretty clothes, and not have to pull, tug, and get tired so soon.... Some thinner ladies say now girl if i had your hips I would be a hott mess... ok.. u can have them if u want... :biggrin:.. I am what some call 'thick'... but i call it fat.... not kidding.. but i don't have self esteem issues... I can be anywhere and have fun no matter what.. A-lot of times I notice that some guys do ignore women like myself because they think we are stuck up, it's not that.. just confident in myself...I am not the fat pretty girl that will allow u to run over her, use her, ruin her credit type of chick... I don't think u have to be fat to have poor SELF-Esteem issues u have to be person that is not happy within to have SELF-Esteem issues... get it SELF-it has to do with-in yourself that comes in fat people as well as thin....... Stop carring about what others say and think the bottom line is if u wear a hot pink top some will like it and some wont... who cares did they buy it for u? once we all get this in our heads we will be better off.... :tt2:

Edited June 20, 2008 by mstrina27

Bjornsyouruncle · June 20, 2008

I'm overweight and I have really high self esteem.

Of course it comes from a lot of different places, not just the way I look. I have a really good support system, an amazing, hot husband, sweet kids, a decent home, a lot of ambition and drive, competence in most things I try, a good work ethic, a job I love, a positive outlook on life, a sense of humor, etc.

I have a lot of good things in my life and being overweight hasn't stopped me from achieving them. Conversely, being skinny wouldn't make me a happy person if the rest of my life stunk.

brandyII · June 20, 2008

Oh, golly, I'm failing already. I have to have the last word! I should have closed this thread before I went out but its just there taunting me.
I dont believe in taking things private and attacking people by PM so I'll say it here.

Brandy, grow up. I removed that post precisely because I realised it was too strongly worded, well before you'd replied to it. And I did it without any catty little notes on the bottom.

its never been about fat or thin to me. I dont care about the size of someone's body. There's some awesome people here, people who are strong, determined, who face challenges and do their darndest. You know, they're not all thin either - actually since I've never met them, I really cant form opinions of them based on how they look can I?. They're just genuinely interesting, smart, efficient people. Then there's wimpy excuse making whiners, ahem, like yourself.

I'm sorry to bust your bubble my dear. Your continuing insistence to view this as a fat or thin issue is simply another manifestation of your inability to face your issues. You cannot accept that I just plain think you're an ineffective personality, so you must turn it into I dont like you because you're fat.

Sorry also that you appear not to be able to read. I think I said that being fat and having self esteem were not mutually exclusive. Or is that too many big words for you?

You come here, ask for advice and then turn petulant when the opinions dont justify your own self delusions. Its exactly like the thread in R&R, all hunky dory whilst people are saying "poor baby, its not your fault" and then all claws when someone disagrees. When you put yourself out there, you get all sorts of opinion back. Mine included.

I think my original post was quite appropriate, despite me not knowing what forum I was in. It need not have caused any debate. It wasnt desgned to. But because it challenged your precarious view of the world with you as helpless victim, it turned bad.

Get some help, seriously.

Jachut, first of all I owe you an apology as I called the post I typed from my email setting your "original" post and I was wrong. That post was obviously edited because in the original one you referred to my way of thinking as "utter twaddle". I still have no idea what that means so maybe you should enlighten me. I'd appreciate it.

I also took the time to respond to your first post, prior to your editing of it and prior to erasing the whole thing and replacing it with a whole "new" post.

My passion remains although your "original post" does not! Not all of us have self esteem and some of it or most of it has been related to our weight problems growing up from childhood into adulthood. Sometimes we need to learn to overcome the negativity brought on through the years by others and ourselves and society in general.

Becoming a healthy smaller size person is wonderful but does not necessary equal self esteem.

If I were an animal I'd be a bear, warm and fuzzy on the outside but come near my den and my cubs and I'll attack. There are always a "few" that have fallen through the cracks and they may need a bit more attention in this world and a little more help along as they make their journey.

Why attack a thread where we're discussing self esteem in a Mental Health support group which was started for those of us who have issues with weight relative to "mental health issues"?

If you want to attack me personally do it through a PM I really don't care or do it on any thread I've posted in the Rants and Raves Section but there's got to be safe places where we can go and discuss without being attacked in such away, peace and thank you, brandyII:thumbup:

tommaney · June 20, 2008

The issue of self-esteem appears to be inextricably linked to our ability to change unhealthy behaviors. Yes, bottom line for success: change the behavior. I wanted to create this discussion area to address the myriad cognitive issues that impair one's capacity to change that behavior.

Self-esteem is one of those cognitive issues. It isn't an excuse for the entire situation--but there needs to be a space to simply offer up your narrative for your own peace of mind. Some people need more time and space for this than others.

It's also important in a thread/forum like this to share past experiences without the danger of being criticized unconstructively. Confrontation might help a person with certain realizations, but it needs to be done with empathy, compassion, and respect. For those of you that want to give out a harsh version of "tough love" because you've interpreted posters like BrandyII as "whining," then please just move on. Dispense that tough love that repetitiously preaches behavior change without delving deeper into the human psyche somewhere else.

I believe Jachut mentioned in a post here that "our self-esteem improves the minute we start this journey," which I can absolutely see to be true for many people. It's a brave step for health and the very act of starting the journey has it's own emotional rewards.

However, this wasn't true for me, and I'd like to point out that language like the quote above is an unwarranted sweeping generalization. Universalizing one's experience can be a slippery slope--especially when rhetoric like that is used to say things like "why we're all fat /because we ATE too much." Some people ate "normal" amounts of the wrong foods at the wrong times and became overweight or obese. Granted, that's probably not the most common set of reasons--but it doesn't make it any less valid. So, to avoid being broad and inaccurate, I'd suggest something like "In my experience, like many others, my self-esteem improved the minute I started this journey." That's just an example.

Anyhow. Meanwhile, back at the ranch....perhaps we should delineate self-image from self-esteem? Of course, self-image is an integral part of self-esteem but I realized that I've had good overall self-esteem yet poor self-image. I think trying things like wearing those bright colors to work can create a learning experience (e.g. someone complimenting you) where a positive feeling is associated with confident, healthy behavior. Thus, self-esteem is revived a bit.

Can anyone think of other small steps to try like wearing that bold shirt? One of my ideas is improving eye contact and smiling. What I've been trying to do is when I'm at a store buying something--or even just doing any kind of exchange--I try to look up at the other person's face and say "thank you" and smile. I believe that the positive feedback (even if it's just a smile) can indirectly improve my feeling of belonging in the world.

Jachut · June 20, 2008

Because Brandy, I didnt attack the thread! I said it was possible to have self esteem when you are fat, but that the behaviours that lead many people to being fat are not a source of pride or self love. Its the same as dealing with a child, you still love your child when they're kicking and screaming on the supermarket floor, you just dont love their behaviour right at that moment.

There is no rule on this forum that when you reply, you can only do so if you are going to totally agree with the OP. If you cant take it Brandy then dont ask for the opinions. That's my opinion. It was stated perfectly reasonably. It was you that turned it into the fat/thin thing yet again, it was you that completely misconstrued what I said, it was you that said that I had made derogatory comments about fat people.

I have not once said that you need to be thin to have self esteem and it mystifies me that you insist on reading that into what I'm saying. I've never once said either that being thin is the only way to be happy. It is really pissing me off that you are insisting on thinking that this is what I'm saying, when I dont think that way at all.

Utter Twaddle means that what you are saying is rubbish. You are inventing your own meanings from my posts in order to fuel your rant. That's what it means. It means that you're living in a fairytale where you think that being good to yourself means completely ignoring what you committed to facing when you got banded. Why does this matter to me? Well at first I cared, I thought I had some help to offer. Now I realise that it means less than nothing to me on the opposite side of the world. But I do care that everyone else here thinks that I have no compassion for fat people, as if I've never BEEN one for pete's sake.

I also realise I'm talking in generalisations. You cant preface everything you say with "I know this doesnt apply to absolutely everyone...."

Not everyone approaches things the same way. My no bullshit approach is not for everyone. But it DOES help some people and just because it threatens your little self constructed fantasy world does not mean I have no right to express it.

Now I'd suggest that the poster above me is right. This thread is for positive contribution and I'd say that the way its turned is only 50% my fault, BrandyII you're at least as responsible. So if you want to continue this, lets take it over to R&R. Start a new thread if you'd like to. But out of respect for the other posters, I think its done here, agreed?

Edited June 20, 2008 by Jachut

tommaney · June 20, 2008

"You cant preface everything you say with "I know this doesnt apply to absolutely everyone...."

Actually, you can. It takes some extra effort and taking more pause when posting. Specifically, the simplest difference is using first person point of view. I'm willing to make that effort because contributes to mutual respect among posters. This is essential when we're talking about issues of mental health.

You call this a "no bullshit" approach, which is definitely good for some people. I've read a lot of great posts from you that have uplifted people on other threads. Please use that approach in another area of LBT where it will be most appreciated.

brandyII · June 21, 2008

tommaney,

You are a very wise person and I do believe it may have something to do with your "third eye" but I'm not sure.

I still feel the anger coming from this thread and it really wasn't meant to provoke but to discuss as you have kindly turned things around and were able to do so but for some reason there's anger still lurking but at least it wasn't written in "red" that tends to bother me more. It's one thing to wear bright colors like a red but it's another thing to write an angry message on a thread in red!

I do believe what you say about looking people in the eye, strangers you're dealing with in a store or a work setting whatever and smiling. When you give you get! It's contagious and there are very few people who if given a chance to be treated with kindness and with a smile do not give it back in return.

Your posture has a lot to do with it also. I kind of learned that when I was diagnosed with cervical arthritis and my PT was working with me on that. I do have bad posture and tend to be top heavy. I'm working on it. If you project confidence and self esteem or self worth, love etc... you'll start feeling it inside. Especially if it's something new to you and hasn't been used in a while. It's a good thing and thanks for stepping up to the plate with kindness and reason! brandyII

tommaney · June 21, 2008

You know what? I initially chose my fishy because on some scary level I felt similar to radioactive mutant. Dramatic, I know. But I love your idea that it's a Third Eye--not freakishness! Because of that insight I'll be thinking of portraying a Third Eye Fish. I'll be re-writing my self-image in a good way. Thank you for contributing to good self-esteem!

Also, I thought it would be good to start a fresh new thread on strategies to improve self-esteem.

brandyII · June 21, 2008

tommaney,

I guess due to my maturity level I am quite fond of some cartoons although I don't watch the Simpsons that much anymore couldn't help but recognize your fishy.

I myself have changed my avatar a few times and one of my faves was Cartman dressed as the tooth fairy. You know how I like to live in fantasy land!!! Did I say that?

Anywho you do deserve to be portrayed with a "third eye" as you are a very wise person and your wisdom is needed here. I tend to be a little too passionate sometimes and it can cloud my vision!

Please start a fresh thread, this one is tainted!!! brandyII