Man forced to pay child support for a kid that isn't his

gadgetlady · January 31, 2008

Im all for being "pure," before marriage, during marriage, and after marriage. But I have a very hard time comprehending the world view that says that anyone who has sex before marriage is "impure."

I meant sexual purity, or virginity, until marriage. I assumed everyone would know what I meant. "Sexual purity" and "virginity" are less elegant terms for the same thing.

marjon9 · January 31, 2008

I meant sexual purity, or virginity, until marriage. I assumed everyone would know what I meant. "Sexual purity" and "virginity" are less elegant terms for the same thing.

I certainly understood what you meant by the term purity. But that's my point. It seems so odd to me that many in the world equate sex before marriage with being "impure." It's not just a coincidence that that word is chosen. People believe that sex before marriage makes a person less than pure. I find that concept inconceivable and really tragic. What an awful burden to have to carry around. Living your life as a normal human being means that there is something wrong with you in the eyes of god and the world. It's just incredible to me that humans choose these world views that make them into "impure" "flawed" "sinners" for simply living a normal life. I shudder to think of the pain this mindset has inflicted over the centuries.

ELENATION · January 31, 2008

for example, that it is "better" to tell the truth, to avoid murdering other people, to finish your vegetables, etc. I just don't agree with those things. It may be "better" for the mouse to avoid being eaten by the fox, but isn't it "better" for the fox to eat the mouse? So, is the fox a sinner? For me, I just see the universe as being in perfect harmony.
This is the problem I have with this reasoning...when you use the fox and mouse example, it doesn't sound all that horrible, and it even makes sense to you....but if we translate it to humanity...say, It may be "better" for the woman to avoid being raped by a man, but isn't it better for the man to rape the woman to satisfy his desires? So, is the man a sinner? Yes, that's far from perfect harmony, and this was sort of an extreme example, but I can say one more...It may be better for someone to avoid buying a used car (not knowing the problems that car may have..) but isn't it better for the car salesman to sell it to anyone, regardles of the condition of it as long as he profits from it? Well, No... whatever happened to honesty, fairness, etc...? I see that as a sin.. and if I wouldn't look at it from a religious stand point, I still see it as a flaw in the car salesman which caused pained to someone else, no perfect harmony.... and I can go on with examples...but you know what I mean...:biggrin:

marjon9 · January 31, 2008

for example, that it is "better" to tell the truth, to avoid murdering other people, to finish your vegetables, etc. I just don't agree with those things. It may be "better" for the mouse to avoid being eaten by the fox, but isn't it "better" for the fox to eat the mouse? So, is the fox a sinner? For me, I just see the universe as being in perfect harmony.
This is the problem I have with this reasoning...when you use the fox and mouse example, it doesn't sound all that horrible, and it even makes sense to you....but if we translate it to humanity...say, It may be "better" for the woman to avoid being raped by a man, but isn't it better for the man to rape the woman to satisfy his desires? So, is the man a sinner? Yes, that's far from perfect harmony, and this was sort of an extreme example, but I can say one more...It may be better for someone to avoid buying a used car (not knowing the problems that car may have..) but isn't it better for the car salesman to sell it to anyone, regardles of the condition of it as long as he profits from it? Well, No... whatever happened to honesty, fairness, etc...? I see that as a sin.. and if I wouldn't look at it from a religious stand point, I still see it as a flaw in the car salesman which caused pained to someone else, no perfect harmony.... and I can go on with examples...but you know what I mean...:biggrin:

Your view is the view held by almost everyone in the world. And I certainly understand it. But why stop at rape or a used car salesman? Let's go all the way to Hitler. Was Hitler a sinner? Of course he was in every sense of the word that most humans accept.

But I have a different point of view. I don't expect people to agree with it or accept it. The way I see the world is that it is what it is. You have a total package that includes everything across the spectrum of the greatest goodness to the the greatest evil. When I look at this universe I choose to see it a good thing just exactly the way it is. There is a balance and perfection that is way beyond anything humans can understand. And I think this balance and perfection is on a level that makes human suffering relatively insignificant in the overall scheme of things. It is certainly insignificant in terms of sheer size. The Earth is so tiny in the universe that nothing that happens here is particularly significant.

One relevant point that I should mention is that I totally reject this concept that there is a god out there who basically looks like a fit Santa Claus and who made humans in his own image, and that each human soul is of great concern to this god, and all that. That whole world view seems juvenile and ridiculous to me. I mean no offense, I'm just describing how I feel.

So, if you take away this artificial importance given to human life by this fantasy god, and look at the actual place of humans in the universe, what I see is that the significance of a rape, or of the holocaust, as infinitesimal and minor in the overall scheme of things. It is important, yes, just like everything is important. And of course we humans live in this world and should make laws against rape and take up arms against Hitler and sue the used car salesman, etc. I'm not advocating that you climb a mountain in the Himalayas and meditate. After all, this little ant farm is what we've got. We need to play the hand we are dealt. But still, I see all these evil things as very close to totally insignificant in the bigger picture.

And when I look at this bigger picture, this universe, what I see is something that I choose to view as unimaginably wonderful, balanced and perfect, in ways I can't even begin to understand, even though it is filled with everything from the greatest evil to the greatest good. It is what it is. There is not much I can do about it. All I can really do is marvel in awe and be profoundly grateful for my chance to be relatively conscious in it for a short period of time.

gadgetlady · January 31, 2008

I certainly understood what you meant by the term purity. But that's my point. It seems so odd to me that many in the world equate sex before marriage with being "impure." It's not just a coincidence that that word is chosen. People believe that sex before marriage makes a person less than pure. I find that concept inconceivable and really tragic.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that the benefits of virginity until marriage and then monogamy afterwards dramatically outweigh the alternative. If everyone lived this way, we'd have no (or minuscully few) STD's, no children born out of wedlock, dramatically fewer abortions, children raised in two-parent nuclear homes, no extra-marital affairs, minimal sexual attachment between unmarried people (and therefore less heartbreak), the list can go on. Now you may argue people have the right to do whatever, sleep with whoever they want, there's nothing wrong with it, why are they flawed because of it, etc., but it is obvious to me that the standard is vastly superior.

Living your life as a normal human being means that there is something wrong with you in the eyes of god and the world. It's just incredible to me that humans choose these world views that make them into "impure" "flawed" "sinners" for simply living a normal life. I shudder to think of the pain this mindset has inflicted over the centuries.

Why do you have to sleep with someone other than your spouse to "live your life as a normal human being"? It works for plenty of people. Are they abnormal?

ELENATION · January 31, 2008

Your view is the view held by almost everyone in the world. And I certainly understand it. But why stop at rape or a used car salesman? Let's go all the way to Hitler. Was Hitler a sinner? Of course he was in every sense of the word that most humans accept.

But I have a different point of view. I don't expect people to agree with it or accept it. The way I see the world is that it is what it is. You have a total package that includes everything across the spectrum of the greatest goodness to the the greatest evil. When I look at this universe I choose to see it a good thing just exactly the way it is. There is a balance and perfection that is way beyond anything humans can understand. And I think this balance and perfection is on a level that makes human suffering relatively insignificant in the overall scheme of things. It is certainly insignificant in terms of sheer size. The Earth is so tiny in the universe that nothing that happens here is particularly significant.

One relevant point that I should mention is that I totally reject this concept that there is a god out there who basically looks like a fit Santa Claus and who made humans in his own image, and that each human soul is of great concern to this god, and all that. That whole world view seems juvenile and ridiculous to me. I mean no offense, I'm just describing how I feel.

So, if you take away this artificial importance given to human life by this fantasy god, and look at the actual place of humans in the universe, what I see is that the significance of a rape, or of the holocaust, as infinitesimal and minor in the overall scheme of things. It is important, yes, just like everything is important. And of course we humans live in this world and should make laws against rape and take up arms against Hitler and sue the used car salesman, etc. I'm not advocating that you climb a mountain in the Himalayas and meditate. After all, this little ant farm is what we've got. We need to play the hand we are dealt. But still, I see all these evil things as very close to totally insignificant in the bigger picture.

And when I look at this bigger picture, this universe, what I see is something that I choose to view as unimaginably wonderful, balanced and perfect, in ways I can't even begin to understand, even though it is filled with everything from the greatest evil to the greatest good. It is what it is. There is not much I can do about it. All I can really do is marvel in awe and be profoundly grateful for my chance to be relatively conscious in it for a short period of time.

Hhhhmmmm, well I disagree, we can agree to that!

When you said.... "I'm not advocating that you climb a mountain in the Himalayas and meditate" I couldn't help but laugh because that's exactly what I was getting from what you were saying.... only I was thinking that while meditating I should smoke a big joint in order to process those thoughts the way you do.... otherwise I didn't get it... and I also don't mean that disrespectful, I just thought it was funny you said that, and I also don't do drugs, it was a figure of speech...

Anyway...obviously God is out of your picture and inside mine... so that alone makes our reasoning very different...that I totally understand, I think that a perfect balanced universe was created, but the evilness of some humans has made it imperfect, flawed and out of balance, and we have done that because we have free will , not because we were created/born evil, but because we have made our own wrong choices at times, and I wouldn't say all of course, natural disasters among other things have not been provoked by us, but some ,if not a lot of the world's chaos and when I say world I'm referring to the planet earth..I think is indeed created by ourselves... and well, the earth is part of the universe....

Ok, I must stop now, I feel like I need to meditate all of a sudden...LOL!:frown:

green · January 31, 2008

I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that the benefits of virginity until marriage and then monogamy afterwards dramatically outweigh the alternative. If everyone lived this way, we'd have no (or minuscully few) STD's, no children born out of wedlock, dramatically fewer abortions, children raised in two-parent nuclear homes, no extra-marital affairs, minimal sexual attachment between unmarried people (and therefore less heartbreak), the list can go on. Now you may argue people have the right to do whatever, sleep with whoever they want, there's nothing wrong with it, why are they flawed because of it, etc., but it is obvious to me that the standard is vastly superior.

The problem (as I see it) is that virginity until marriage and then sexual monogamy afterwards does not necessarily guarantee good marriages. All that this clean livin' will do is cut down on the transmission of STDs and the number of single parent families.

Sexually tidy practices will not solve any of the other problems which can make a marriage a truly hellish experience. Some people will act in a physically or emotionally abusive manner towards their mates and their children. Some people will marry before they are sufficiently emotionally mature to handle marriage. They may marry in order to escape living under their own parents' roofs, they may rush to marry because they are horny and they want access to sex. It is easy when one is young and immature to confuse sexual passion with true love.

There are many people who believe that they truly love their mates but they show this through displays of pathological jealousy. These are unions where personal growth is stunted. Dysfunction is not, I believe, rooted in loose sexual practices. Sexual tidiness won't solve these ills.

ELENATION · January 31, 2008

I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that the benefits of virginity until marriage and then monogamy afterwards dramatically outweigh the alternative. If everyone lived this way, we'd have no (or minuscully few) STD's, no children born out of wedlock, dramatically fewer abortions, children raised in two-parent nuclear homes, no extra-marital affairs, minimal sexual attachment between unmarried people (and therefore less heartbreak), the list can go on. Now you may argue people have the right to do whatever, sleep with whoever they want, there's nothing wrong with it, why are they flawed because of it, etc., but it is obvious to me that the standard is vastly superior.
Why do you have to sleep with someone other than your spouse to "live your life as a normal human being"? It works for plenty of people. Are they abnormal?

Well, and I agree with you Gadget, because actually for me sleeping with whoever you want maybe for the fun of it and practicing this kind of behavior is actually NOT normal..and it's a flaw of character, I just can't see it any other way, and by saying this, I'm not saying that I'm perfect or that I live a perfect life at all, but I do admit that we human beings can be flawed and impure and we can make the world that way.., I personally could go on about my flaws... it's just a fact.:frown:

gadgetlady · January 31, 2008

The problem (as I see it) is that virginity until marriage and then sexual monogamy afterwards does not necessarily guarantee good marriages. All that this clean livin' will do is cut down on the transmission of STDs and the number of single parent families.
Sexually tidy practices will not solve any of the other problems which can make a marriage a truly hellish experience. Some people will act in a physically or emotionally abusive manner towards their mates and their children. Some people will marry before they are sufficiently emotionally mature to handle marriage. They may marry in order to escape living under their own parents' roofs, they may rush to marry because they are horny and they want access to sex. It is easy when one is young and immature to confuse sexual passion with true love.

I agree with you. I never said it would solve those problems. A good marriage is more than just monogamy. It requires many other components. I was simply talking about the benefits of virginity until marriage and monogamy afterwards would garner.

That being said,

Dysfunction is not, I believe, rooted in loose sexual practices. Sexual tidiness won't solve these ills.

I think there actually is some dysfunction rooted in loose sexual practices. These practices can cause disharmony, distrust, jealousy, and many other dysfunctional feelings -- which can lead to dysfunctional behaviors. Please understand: I am not saying this is a cure-all. I do believe, however, that the practice of virginity until marriage and monogamy afterwards can not only solve many social (e.g. single parent families) and physical (e.g. STDs) issues but it can also have an impact on the success of marriage.

green · January 31, 2008

Your view is the view held by almost everyone in the world. And I certainly understand it. But why stop at rape or a used car salesman? Let's go all the way to Hitler. Was Hitler a sinner? Of course he was in every sense of the word that most humans accept.

But I have a different point of view. I don't expect people to agree with it or accept it. The way I see the world is that it is what it is. You have a total package that includes everything across the spectrum of the greatest goodness to the the greatest evil. When I look at this universe I choose to see it a good thing just exactly the way it is. There is a balance and perfection that is way beyond anything humans can understand. And I think this balance and perfection is on a level that makes human suffering relatively insignificant in the overall scheme of things. It is certainly insignificant in terms of sheer size. The Earth is so tiny in the universe that nothing that happens here is particularly significant.

One relevant point that I should mention is that I totally reject this concept that there is a god out there who basically looks like a fit Santa Claus and who made humans in his own image, and that each human soul is of great concern to this god, and all that. That whole world view seems juvenile and ridiculous to me. I mean no offense, I'm just describing how I feel.

So, if you take away this artificial importance given to human life by this fantasy god, and look at the actual place of humans in the universe, what I see is that the significance of a rape, or of the holocaust, as infinitesimal and minor in the overall scheme of things. It is important, yes, just like everything is important. And of course we humans live in this world and should make laws against rape and take up arms against Hitler and sue the used car salesman, etc. I'm not advocating that you climb a mountain in the Himalayas and meditate. After all, this little ant farm is what we've got. We need to play the hand we are dealt. But still, I see all these evil things as very close to totally insignificant in the bigger picture.

And when I look at this bigger picture, this universe, what I see is something that I choose to view as unimaginably wonderful, balanced and perfect, in ways I can't even begin to understand, even though it is filled with everything from the greatest evil to the greatest good. It is what it is. There is not much I can do about it. All I can really do is marvel in awe and be profoundly grateful for my chance to be relatively conscious in it for a short period of time.

Although I think that I get what you are saying, Marjon, (I have been spending some of my time as a recent retiree reading human genetics for dummies, environmental history for blondies, and social anthropology for fools or, um, er, artsies) I am inclined to view our human concerns through two different set of optics.

There is indeed the larger view: we human creatures, mammals, omnivores, social animals, and big-head members of the monkey clan are only one item in a large and intricate mechanism. Indeed it may be argued that our membership is unnecessary for the planet earth to keep on ticking. Subtract the dung beetle and this planet may well encounter more problems than it would should we humans be subtracted from the equation. This is the big point of view.

Nevertheless, and this is where I find that I disagree with you, we are human beings and thus our own physical, emotional, and ethical concerns are naturally of paramount importance to us. This is only normal and might be considered a product of our hardwiring. All animals are anxious to survive, thrive, and pass on their genetic material. All animals understand that a certain amount of co-operation between the pack will be required if they, as individuals, are to survive.

I believe that we are at the top of the food chain in many ways. Our extraordinary intelligence has caused us to distort the natural ecological patterns because we have kinda overrun the planet. We sure are the top predator, eh.

But we big-heads cannot be faulted for being desirous of examining the ethics of our behaviour, of weighing the value of the survival of the pack against the survival of one's own self.

For sure you are right when you say that you find our tiny struggles to be only that, something which must be viewed within the framework of something which is much, much larger - and something which is of course entirely detached from us. At the same time it is only natural that we will interest ourselves in those issues which loom large in our own little own lives. And what is wrong with that? This is how we are built.

Let me explain: my husband and I now live with a semi-feral cat, a stray which we took in, had spayed, cleaned up, etc. She has grudgingly begun to show signs of attachment to us but this is very much within the framework of her tastes, interests, and drive to survive. Her behaviour remains a mystery to us; there is no chance of anthropomorphising this. She is an alien creature who continues to look after her own interests in her own mysterious way. I would be fool if I were to attempt to understand this animal. I do have all the skills and rights to attempt to understand our little human corner of this big universe.

marjon9 · January 31, 2008

Although I think that I get what you are saying, Marjon, (I have been spending some of my time as a recent retiree reading human genetics for dummies, environmental history for blondies, and social anthropology for fools or, um, er, artsies) I am inclined to view our human concerns through two different set of optics.

There is indeed the larger view: we human creatures, mammals, omnivores, social animals, and big-head members of the monkey clan are only one item in a large and intricate mechanism. Indeed it may be argued that our membership is unnecessary for the planet earth to keep on ticking. Subtract the dung beetle and this planet may well encounter more problems than it would should we humans be subtracted from the equation. This is the big point of view.

Nevertheless, and this is where I find that I disagree with you, we are human beings and thus our own physical, emotional, and ethical concerns are naturally of paramount importance to us. This is only normal and might be considered a product of our hardwiring. All animals are anxious to survive, thrive, and pass on their genetic material. All animals understand that a certain amount of co-operation between the pack will be required if they, as individuals, are to survive.

I believe that we are at the top of the food chain in many ways. Our extraordinary intelligence has caused us to distort the natural ecological patterns because we have kinda overrun the planet. We sure are the top predator, eh.

But we big-heads cannot be faulted for being desirous of examining the ethics of our behaviour, of weighing the value of the survival of the pack against the survival of one's own self.

For sure you are right when you say that you find our tiny struggles to be only that, something which must be viewed within the framework of something which is much, much larger - and something which is of course entirely detached from us. At the same time it is only natural that we will interest ourselves in those issues which loom large in our own little own lives. And what is wrong with that? This is how we are built.

Let me explain: my husband and I now live with a semi-feral cat, a stray which we took in, had spayed, cleaned up, etc. She has grudgingly begun to show signs of attachment to us but this is very much within the framework of her tastes, interests, and drive to survive. Her behaviour remains a mystery to us; there is no chance of anthropomorphising this. She is an alien creature who continues to look after her own interests in her own mysterious way. I would be fool if I were to attempt to understand this animal. I do have all the skills and rights to attempt to understand our little human corner of this big universe.

I'm not sure that I see anything here that I disagree with, or that is inconsistent with what I have been saying. As I mentioned, I'm not advocating that we climb a mountain and meditate. Of course we are interested in our own lives and our own world. I certainly do everything I can to survive and prosper. I care who wins football games, I make mistakes, etc. I am not advocating being detached from the day to day realities of life on earth.

My point in all of this is, I can't understand why humans are so determined to adopt a world view the results in the conclusion that they are "flawed," "impure," etc. That seems highly unfortunate and so unnecessary. I believe that taking the larger perspective and understanding our place in the bigger scheme of things takes the pressure off and allows people to cut themselves a little slack.

Why do people choose to view the world as created by some sort of judgmental god who has made a world full of flawed and impure beings who must strive in futility with the hopeless goal of someday being worthy. Why do we choose this world view?

Of course, I am well aware that there are many who believe that this is not our "choice" concerning how to view the world, but rather it is simply the "truth" about the world "god" created. But that whole story line makes no sense to me at all. I just see a choice. And I can't help but wonder, what is it that makes people choose a world view that leads them to the conclusion that they are failures. I just don't get that at all.

green · February 1, 2008

And, yup, the creep who knowingly chooses to sell someone vulnerable a piece a junk used car or who wishes to play the role of this Hitler cat, that clown who had caused a) that dreadful 2nd World War and who had b)worked hard to erase all the Jews in Europe, well, both these individuals should be viewed as immoral creatures, as creatures who have transgressed against the well-being of the human pack, and as such the actions of these folks must be examined and they must be considered equally eligible to receive a cruel smack-down.

For sure it is true that Hitler's actions were certainly oh so stunningly much more harmful than the actions of a cheap crooked used car salesman should you are wish to engage in weighing the relative damages of injuries of this sort, should you wish to talk about yer quantity and, yah, quality, nevertheless, the cash-screwed family who finds themselves stuck with a bow-wow lemon car and no chance of recourse, may well find themselves suffering as just about as much about their sad situation as those families who find themselves utterly ruined because of the seemingly random brutalities of racism and geo-politics.

I am inclined to view the immorality of such activities as genocide as being very similar to any knowingly irresponsible behaviours which are enacted on those very small, those very intimate, those very narrow levels. I mention this because I have been reading in my, an admittedly, foreign press that the first victims of this bluddy awful sub-prime tragedy are decent working class folk, some of whom are not white. Seems like many of these cats are Canadians, eh.

green · February 1, 2008

I certainly don't think that we are flawed with respect to the tiny position which we occupy in face of the larger mechanism, the larger world, the universe. We are what we are or we is what we is..... This is what life is as far as we will be able to absorb it.

The semi-feral cat with whom my mate and I live sure does march to a different beat.

As I have already said, this cat is not a good pet. She is semi-feral. she does not enjoy that whole cuddling-cosy-lovin-kitty-thang. She sure is not warm and cosy. And though we had the creature spayed we did end up choking at having her declawed. A dumb idea on our part. Our house is full of textiles and this cat is awful fond of sharpening her talons on our soft stuff. She has always ignored the kitty scratch pad. Why ruin a man-made paper product when you can ruin valuable oriental rugs, hang from curtains, and evoke a knee-jerk response from those fools with whom you live?

VegasGrace · February 1, 2008

The law sees the legal entity (the marriage) having the responsibiltiy of rearing the child....just like ALL debts in the marriage...even if 1 party did not charge on the card or know about the purchases.

Weird, huh?

Marimaru · February 1, 2008

The law sees the legal entity (the marriage) having the responsibiltiy of rearing the child....just like ALL debts in the marriage...even if 1 party did not charge on the card or know about the purchases.
Weird, huh?

My mom took on a PILE of debt she didn't even know my dad had created in her Quest to get custody of us. She worked her butt off to get it paid off so we could move on from that. I was in a situation VERY similar to what bonniep listed as her childhood, watching my mom work all the time, while my dad didn't pay child support (or airfare for visits or anything like that). I have two younger sisters, and we all 'manage him' differently, but you can clearly see that we were all affected.

I do think that adults need to think more about what they are doing to their children, in cases of divorce and whatnot, but I also don't believe that staying with someone you want to divorce for "the sake of the children" is the best answer either. I think I would have needed more than 3 years of therapy to get past it if my parents had stayed together another 15 years. Yeesh.