You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

Btw, I do not believe that citing statistics that reveal that convicted murderers claim to be of one religion or another is necessarily incorrect. It makes total sense. I mean think about the big picture. How many people in the U.S., for instance, claim to be of one religion or other as opposed to having no religious affiliation? I don't have the numbers, but I would imagine that there are many, many more people with religious affiliation than those with no religious affiliation. Think about under what conditions and by whom the question was asked.

If it is taken on just its' own merit, it doesn't however, make a convincing argument that religious people are more violent or murderous. It only points to a need for more in-depth study, doesn't it?

I remember being taken years ago to the nearest hospital to my parents' house after I had sustained an eye injury. This was a Catholic-run hospital and the intake clerk, a young Filipina, was asking me for my data. When it came to my religion I told her that I had none. She kept repeating the question and I kept repeating my answer until finally she said in tones of great shock, "None??? Not even Protestant?"

"Nope." I still giggle whenever I remember this.

When we were living in northern BC in the early '70's we used to get frustrated at times with the very unworldly locals who sometimes seemed to take pride in their narrowness. Friends of ours, a couple of young hippies from New York, went into the small local hospital to deliver their child. When the intake nurse asked the religion question and they answered "Jewish", she got really flustered and said "Oh, I'll just put "other" down."

We chuckle about that till this day.

To suggest that doctors perform abortions just to make money is very biased and judgmental. Many doctors have compassion and a sense of what's in the best interests of their patients when they perform abortions. Please stop speaking in absolutes just to make your point. It makes for a less than credible argument.

I am not the one speaking in absolutes. I am not the one making statements stating as fact that certain people are more likely to be a criminal or that a doctor who performs late-terms abortions is "courageous". I don't know why you made such a harsh remark and you directed it at the wrong person. I merely pointed out that these doctors make money doing this, they are not doing it merely as a public service as was implied. If you don't agree, state your reasons why. Don't scold me on how to state an opinion, please. I was much more polite in my post than you just were to me.

To suggest that doctors perform abortions just to make money is very biased and judgmental. Many doctors have compassion and a sense of what's in the best interests of their patients when they perform abortions. Please stop speaking in absolutes just to make your point. It makes for a less than credible argument.

I am not the one speaking in absolutes. I am not the one making statements stating as fact that certain people are more likely to be a criminal or that a doctor who performs late-terms abortions is "courageous". I don't know why you made such a harsh remark and you directed it at the wrong person. I merely pointed out that these doctors make money doing this, they are not doing it merely as a public service as was implied. If you don't agree, state your reasons why. Don't scold me on how to state an opinion, please. I was much more polite in my post than you just were to me.

Well, I'm the one suggesting it then..., because I do believe that many doctors do it for the money, I won't say just all of them, but many of them do, millions of dollars are paid on abusive claims that doctors are aware of and willingly participating, which by the way those payments increase the cost of insurance for everyone, but that's a whole different topic, but of course there are plenty of unscrupulous doctors that do whatever they have to do for money, including abortions... and I understood what you meant L8bloomR... I know you didn't imply that at all... I agree with everything you said.

Well, I'm the one suggesting it then..., because I do believe that many doctors do it for the money, I won't say just all of them, but many of them do, millions of dollars are paid on abusive claims that doctors are aware of and willingly participating, which by the way those payments increase the cost of insurance for everyone, but that's a whole different topic, but of course there are plenty of unscrupulous doctors that do whatever they have to do for money, including abortions... and I understood what you meant L8bloomR... I know you didn't imply that at all... I agree with everything you said.

Thank you, Elena, I appreciate the support!

I am pro life. I have thought very deeply on the whole rape issue. I can tell you that I personally could put it behind me and love the child - even if that child was the image of the rapist. I've carried 3 children in my womb and I fell in love with each one of them even before I knew for a fact that conception had taken place. I know several women (with whom I'm very close with, sil's, bf's) who have had abortions and still mourn over the lost child. I also know a woman who had an affair, got pg with her 5th child (dh had a vasc. after #4) call her stupid if you like but she was in a situation where abortion would have been the easiest way out. She chose to have the child, her dh has accepted the child as his own - tell me how difficult that would be? The baby of the family is now in 1st grade and looks like her daddy. I'm sure dh sees the other man in that child - I believe we as humans are given a gift in bearing life. I personally would never abort a child, and if there is no other answer for that raped/incested woman I would say there are way too many loving people out there who would adopt that child then to see it aborted. Will she be traumatized? Yes but she will be whether she conceived or not - if she gives a child up will it come back to haunt her? No more then the child she aborts -

Oh, btw... I spanked my children too.

BTW - the prisons are full of Christians? Of course they are, they've hit rock bottom and have no where to turn but up.

Do you think I'm being sarcastic? My dear brother fell into a pit of drugs - after 20 years of marriage his wife left - he lost his job, family and life - he ended up so addicted that he knew a treatment center wouldn't work - he ended up in prison. Gave his life to God, got his life back. He's a year out, clean and has his entire family back -even the ex-wife (thats another story) - Without God - Jesus - in his life he would be right back out on the streets again. Yeah, I believe the prison is full of Christians. BUT wait - didn't I read that Muslims were the fastest growing religion in America? Hmmm? CNN - Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world - Apr. 14, 1997

The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.

I wonder if Muslims believe in abortion?

I am pro life. I have thought very deeply on the whole rape issue. I can tell you that I personally could put it behind me and love the child - even if that child was the image of the rapist. I've carried 3 children in my womb and I fell in love with each one of them even before I knew for a fact that conception had taken place. I know several women (with whom I'm very close with, sil's, bf's) who have had abortions and still mourn over the lost child. I also know a woman who had an affair, got pg with her 5th child (dh had a vasc. after #4) call her stupid if you like but she was in a situation where abortion would have been the easiest way out. She chose to have the child, her dh has accepted the child as his own - tell me how difficult that would be? The baby of the family is now in 1st grade and looks like her daddy. I'm sure dh sees the other man in that child - I believe we as humans are given a gift in bearing life. I personally would never abort a child, and if there is no other answer for that raped/incested woman I would say there are way too many loving people out there who would adopt that child then to see it aborted. Will she be traumatized? Yes but she will be whether she conceived or not - if she gives a child up will it come back to haunt her? No more then the child she aborts -

Oh, btw... I spanked my children too.

What a beautiful and loving post, StephC. Your kids are lucky to have you...even with the spankings ! :biggrin1:

I, too, have read about those statistics which Robgobblin has cited and while I find them awfully attractive I must admit that I consider that much additional work on the demographics of offenders would have to be done in order to make these statistics truly meaningful. It would be interesting to know what percentage of atheists in the general population have a highschool diploma or less as contrasted with the overall population. I suggest this because we are already aware that few offenders, particularly violent offenders, have had any experience with post-secondary education.

It would also be useful to know what the percentage of atheist offenders are in those countries which report a comparatively high number of atheists in their populations. If I remember correctly, I believe the Scandinavian countries fall into this group. I believe that 40% of Norway's population lists themselves as atheists. (I really oughta bookmark these sites!)

As for this notion that those doctors who do provide abortions do so merely because of the bucks....I find this argument to be specious. It is my understanding that there is no shortage of medical work out there and thus doctors can easily make lotsa bucks without undertaking work of this kind. I am inclined to believe that those doctors who refuse to engage in abortions and those who choose to undertake this work tend to be individuals who, like ourselves who are engaged in this debate, hold wildly differing opinions of whose needs carry the most weight. Though I hesitate to answer for someone else my hunch is that BJean reacted hard at the notion that those doctors who supply abortions are nothing more than a pack of greedy jackals. And there are much easier ways for lazy, incompetant, and greedy docs to scam the system, are there not? Cutting prescriptions for hillbilly heroin is one.

I don't see where anyone said that abortion doctors do it only for the money. The comment was made that a doctor who performs a late-term abortion is somehow "courageous" and doing it for altruistic purposes. No proof was offered that this was the case, and for those of us who are in the medical field, we know that doctors get paid for everything they do, and therefore also know that "courageous" or not, this doctor is also getting paid. Making the debate about whether or not "all" doctors do their work merely for the money is a straw argument because no one is saying that and no one could prove that one way or the other.

Thanks L8bloomr - truth is I don't do the rants and raves bc its usually a useless battle. Everyone has their own opinion and I doubt what I have to say will change anyone elses. But abortion is something I feel strongly about. I also feel very strongly about Jesus, being a Christian is so misunderstood. I get so tired of everyone who has strong moral values as being thrown into the radiacal right wing group. Jesus wasn't like that at all. He was friend to sinners - and yes I'm a Christian but I'm a sinner too. Only by Gods grace am I forgiven. If we each look deep into our souls and find out what kind of forgiveness we are capable of - can you forgive the rapist? Can you forgive the molester (I've been there), can you forgive the husband or boyfriend who cheated on you? (been there) How about the drunk driver who killed your best friend or brother? How about that officer gossiper who told everyone you had lapband surgery? Petty when we think of it, but it hurt just the same. If we can forgive any of these people who have hurt us - just think how much more God can forgive us. Can we love the homosexual? I should hope so since most of us have them in our family! What is sin? Did God send down a list of things we can't do because its SIN? No, God sent down a list of things that will bring pain and destruction to our lives. When God says don't commit adultry is it bc he doesn't want us to have a 'good time' , no, its bc he knows it will bring pain, hurt, confussion, destruction to the relationship. When God says don't kill we interpret it however it suits us. Someone says we are hyprocrites bc we still kill animals to eat - well thats their interpretation and aparently haven't read any of the other scriptures that tell us to eat the meat. I dont' have a problem is a vegetarian, good for them, but I like meat (Lord knows I like all food or I wouldn't be on LBT) - do I have a problem with gluttony? you bet I do - yep I'm a sinner but I'm also a Christian who has accepted Jesus Christ as her savior (savior means He alone can save me from hell by forgiving me of my sins).

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. Goodnight and farewell.

Again, beautiful post, StephC. Very honest. I agree with you on everything you said about God's love and expectations of us. And I hope you are saying "farewell" because you are going to bed, not because you are leaving us!!

Just poking my nose in here, catching up on the day . . . would love to help you, L8BloomR and StephC, but I'm on a cruise right now and have better things to do -- besides, clearly you don't need me {grin}.

StephC, love your sentiments. Green and Devana, incredible stories about "other" religions -- some people are so short-sighted! I can just see you chuckling as you remember -- I laughed, too.

As to questions of abortionists doing it for the money, I believe this factor is one of many. If you listen to former abortionists who are now pro-life, they do cite the money as having been a big factor for them. I can provide a link to substantiate if anyone wants it -- when I get back from the cruise :-)

Just poking my nose in here, catching up on the day . . . would love to help you, L8BloomR and StephC, but I'm on a cruise right now and have better things to do -- besides, clearly you don't need me {grin}.

StephC, love your sentiments. Green and Devana, incredible stories about "other" religions -- some people are so short-sighted! I can just see you chuckling as you remember -- I laughed, too.

As to questions of abortionists doing it for the money, I believe this factor is one of many. If you listen to former abortionists who are now pro-life, they do cite the money as having been a big factor for them. I can provide a link to substantiate if anyone wants it -- when I get back from the cruise :-)

Hope you are having a great cruise, Gadgetlady! Thanks for checking in...