who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

I said that plastic surgery shouldn't be limited. I also believe that 3-4 months into a pregnancy is enough time to make up your mind...If you are too scare to tell your parents that you got pregnant because you were having sex at the age of 14, 15, 16 then you have no business having sex. If it was a rape then I would understand that you may be scared and upset, but if you can't talk to your parents then who can you talk to (That's how I was raised at least)? Besides you can go to planned parenthoods and have an abortion for free. These doctors cannot tell your parents, it's a confidentiality thing. So, yes 3-4 months into a pregnancy seems like a reasonable amount of time to me to make up ones mind.

Here's the point I was trying to make. Yo don't believe that plastic surgery should be limited, and, IMO, rightly so. What a person wants to do with their own body should be their discretion.

However, you do want abortion to be limited. The limitations vary -- 8-12 weeks, 3-4 months, etc. -- but you and a lot of other people definitely want limitations.

Here's my question: WHY should abortion be limited? You say a mother should be able to make up her mind 3-4 months into the pregnancy about whether or not she wants to abort, but why should she HAVE to make up her mind by this arbitrary timeline? What criteria or criterion are you using to determine this artificial deadline after which point you would curtail her decision to have an elective surgery.

Edited February 17, 2009 by gadgetlady

[BJean 16]

Abortion should be legal during the entire 9 months of a pregnancy according to all the laws of the land.

Abortion and plastic surgery are not things that the government should control.

[rodriguezequal 3]

That's just my belief...pastic surgery doesn't kill something or someone (unless something goes wrong). In late term abortions they are getting rid of a fetus that could have a chance to survive. This is just my belief and I am not trying to tell everyone that my belief is how it should be...Myself, personally I would never have an abortion past 18 weeks. I'm not saying that no one should have one later, I just couldn't do it.

[gadgetlady 4]

Abortion should be legal during the entire 9 months of a pregnancy according to all the laws of the land.

That's what I thought you believed, until you said, on 2/9:

I do not believe that an abortion at that late stage in the pregnancy should be a medical procedure allowable "upon demand." If there are extenuating medical circumstances, that's one thing. If the lady just decided at that late date that she didn't want to be pregnant, it's a whole 'nuther thing.

I found that prior statement curious, because I was pretty sure you believed in abortion on demand through all 9 months of pregnancy with no limitations whatsoever.

That being said, since you've reversed your prior statement, I'm not at all surprised that you believe abortion should be legal for any reason or no reason up until the point of full gestation. Not surprised at all.

[gadgetlady 4]

That's just my belief...pastic surgery doesn't kill something or someone (unless something goes wrong).

So abortion kills someone? Then why is it EVER acceptable?

This is just my belief and I am not trying to tell everyone that my belief is how it should be...Myself, personally I would never have an abortion past 18 weeks. I'm not saying that no one should have one later, I just couldn't do it.

So abortion kills someone, but no one has a right to tell anyone that they can't undertake this killing procedure? Do you see the problem here?

Life is an empirical fact, not a belief. Religion is a belief. The existence of life is not a belief.

[Carrie_C 9]

Plastic surgery has nothing to do with abortion, but yes, I think there should be a limit to how much plastic surgery a person should have. More importantly, I think doctors need to be more ethical and not preform plastic surgery on someone who truely does not need it, especially multiple times. When someone is going in to have tons of plastic surgery done, there is definitely a problem psychologically. And that needs to be dealt with, because no amout of plastic surgery will make them happy. Their problem is on the inside, not the outside.

As far as limits on abortion, I don't think it should be done on a fetus that is far enough along to live outside the womb. I think that is when it becomes murder. (Unless there are health issues). There are different opinions on when that time is, so I'm not sure about how far along that would be considered. It is also more dangerous late term.

[rodriguezequal 3]

I meant hurt, not kill. Look I am not here to say your wrong your wrong. I was just here to tell my story and my belief. I believe that abortions should be legal up to a point. I don't care if you share my views or not. I am not on here to be rude to people or to have people be rude to me. I answer your questions the best that I can and I do my best not to upset anyone on here, but it seems like that is all you are trying to do. No matter what you say my belief will still stand...can't we just be nice to each other? I am sorry if our views aren't the same...but your views hold just as much power as mine do...I don't think you are wrong or that your belief is wrong or stupid. I'm not on here to say your belief is wrong and here's why. I am just here to say what I believe and hear what others believe and what their view is on the subject. Please don't turn this into an I'm right your wrong arguement because under our own beliefs we are all right :thumbup: Belief can be whatever I want it to be. Let's just say that my view, my standing, ...what I like to call my belief.

[gadgetlady 4]

I meant hurt, not kill.

Are you saying the baby only gets hurt?

Look I am not here to say your wrong your wrong. I was just here to tell my story and my belief. I believe that abortions should be legal up to a point. I don't care if you share my views or not. I am not on here to be rude to people or to have people be rude to me. I answer your questions the best that I can and I do my best not to upset anyone on here, but it seems like that is all you are trying to do. No matter what you say my belief will still stand...can't we just be nice to each other?

I'm trying to challenge people to think about why they believe what they believe. I'm not trying to be rude, and I don't think I have been. But I have asked some difficult questions and pointed out some of the consistency problems.

I certainly don't think I've not been nice. I haven't called you names (like others have called me) or gotten angry or railed on you for your position; all I've done is asked some tough questions in an effort to have you view this issue from a different perspective.

Many years ago, someone challenged the logic of my reasoning on the death penalty. Their perspective prompted me to look at my views and, in the end, I changed what had been a long-held belief for me.

People can change their perspectives about things, don't you think?

I am sorry if our views aren't the same...but your views hold just as much power as mine do...I don't think you are wrong or that your belief is wrong or stupid. I'm not on here to say your belief is wrong and here's why. I am just here to say what I believe and hear what others believe and what their view is on the subject. Please don't turn this into an I'm right your wrong arguement because under our own beliefs we are all right :blushing: Belief can be whatever I want it to be. Let's just say that my view, my standing, ...what I like to call my belief.

The problem is that when you're playing around with the issue of when a human being lives and when he dies, you have to be really, really sure you're right because if you're not, you've just killed someone (or advocated for their killing).

There is a difference between beliefs and absolute truths, unless you are arguing in favor of complete moral relativism (which I don't think you are). We would never hesitate to call child abuse wrong; if someone said it was their "belief" that child abuse was acceptable, you would, without hesitation I believe, call them wrong. If someone said slavery should be legal because it's one person's belief, you would be 100% justified in calling them wrong. And there's a reason they're wrong: they involve the infringement of the subjected person's rights.

Similarly, when we allow one person (the mother) to define when another person's (the baby's) life has value or deserves to be protected, we are on very shaky ground. Because that's really what oppression is: one person's taking away another person's value or worth and subjecting him to any number of horrific things simply because he has the power to do so.

Because in the issue of abortion we are dealing with life and death matters, whether we get it right is critical. And there is a right and wrong in this matter. It's not subjective. Everyone's life begins somewhere, and everyone's life begins at the same time as everyone else's. Your life didn't begin at 6 months and mine at conception and someone else's at birth. Any random person's arbitrary definition of when life begins is inconsequential to when it really begins, and that's what's critical to determine in this issue. It's not about beliefs. It's about facts.

[gadgetlady 4]

Just posting two newsclips of interest here:

The N. Dakota Personhood bill, HB 1572, passed out of the House this Tuesday 51-41. It defines a "person" under N. Dakota law as any member of the human genome, which would extend to unborn children.

And here's an interesting interview with the mother of the baby who died after the "botched" abortion - from http://www.lifenews.com/state3857.html (emphasis mine):

The mother of a baby who was killed in a tragic and bizarre botched abortion case is now speaking out about her experience and the lawsuit she filed against the abortion practitioner. Sycloria Williams gave an exclusive interview to the Florida Catholic after a medical board revoked the abortion practitioner's license.

In July 2006, Williams sought an abortion at the GYN Diagnostic Center abortion facility in Hialeah, outside Miami.

Williams, 18 at the time, paid $1,200 for the abortion. She had preparatory work done for the abortion on one day and came back the next to complete the abortion procedure.

Instead, she gave birth to Shanice Denise Osbourne, whom abortion facility staff failed to provide medical care for and eventually hid from officials who came to the abortion center to investigate.

Earlier this month, the Florida Board of Medicine revoked the license of abortion practitioner Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique after declaring him guilty of medical malpractice.

The panel also found him guilty of wrongly delegating a medical responsibility meant for physicians to unlicensed personnel.

In the interview, Williams said she was "reluctant at first" to have the abortion "but as time passed it became more and more of an option."

After finding out that an abortion at the Miramar Woman Center was more than she could afford, Williams went to Renelique.

"He said that it was a two-day procedure, to take my medicines, and come back the next day. He just said it like one, two, three," she told the Florida Catholic.

Williams said Renelique inserted laminaria and gave her a prescription for Cytotec, a brand of the drug misoprostol that is an ulcer medication and not supposed to be used in association with an abortion.

Williams eventually received a call from the daughter of abortion business owner Belkis Gonzalez and made her way to the A Gyn center to complete the abortion. On the way there, she and her then-boyfriend Shane decided not to complete the abortion.

She received another dosage of Cytotec and waited in her car for the drug to work.

Williams told the newspaper how she recalls the labor intensifying and being unable to comply with requests from the abortion center staff not to deliver her baby, who was born on the couch in the abortion facility.

"When I saw that happen, I jumped off the chair and turned away, facing the wall," Williams said.

"She wasn't moving much. Twitching, gasping for air. She wasn't crying though, just hissing. Hissing sounds only," Williams said of Shanice. "I thought it would be a blob thing, but bigger, not a baby," she said. "She looked like a Water Baby. Like those dolls you fill up with water."

"They never said anything to me that would make me think it was a baby. They never said anything like ‘baby,’ ‘fetus.’ Nothing. They only said things like ‘termination’ and ‘pregnancy’ and ‘termination of pregnancy,'" she said.

Williams says Gonzalez, who has no medical training, then came in and took the baby and put her in a biohazard bag.

She told the newspaper that the staff just gave her a pain reliever and told her to calm down and wait for the abortion practitioner to arrive.

Renelique arrived 60 minutes later and no one called 911 or a local medical center for help. The abortion practitioner gave Williams a shot to put her to sleep.

Detectives went to the abortion center after an anonymous tip and later executed a search warrant but didn't find the baby's body until six days later.

Now, Williams has changed her mind about abortion and would keep her baby if she had it to do all over again.

"No one should lose their life if you get pregnant," she said. "If I got pregnant again I would have the baby."

"I would tell them not to do it. I'll say whatever to make them have second thoughts so they don't do it... There is help out there," she told the Catholic newspaper about what she would tell a woman who was pregnant.

Shanice eventually received a proper burial.

[pattygreen 5]

These would be the pro-choice folks who believe that one does not deliberately start out to have a litter of babies - and by opting to have a litter you are deliberately opting to elevate the chances of having the either/or the physical or mental health of these infants compromised! - without the means or ability to adequately raise them. Off course we think that this idiot should be hung! How can we not??? These are the actions of someone who thinks that babies are like toys or kittens. This case is very shocking, very repellent to us.

As for your own niece, I note that you are unable to keep your nose out of that case. "Judge not, lest ye......" didn't your God say this to you, Pattygreen? Maybe your niece is an atheist, (and truly doesn't care about the fate of foetus) exhausted and repelled by the perfumed odor of your very public piety.

You're joking, rght?! First of all, How does the fact that prochoicers didn't deliberately start out to have a litter of babies justify abortion??!! What about the health (or life) of the baby that's killed by these prochoicers? That doesn't matter? You are repelled and shocked that she feels her babies are like toys and kittens, but you're not repelled and shocked that the prochoicers feel their babies are worthless, disposable, trash to be tossed or sucked out of their uterus with a vaccuum. Wow! Did you know that there have been cases where babies are heard screaming during abortions? Did you know that science proves that babies can feel pain in the womb? It's quite amazing how you would be repelled by her decision to have a large family and not be able to care properly (IYO) for them, but not repelled by the cruel, escrutiatingly painful killing of a defenseless baby! God help us all!

BTW My niece is my business.

[pattygreen 5]

If someone thinks plastic surgery should be limited, who's going to head up the plastic surgery police squad? The same folks who've decided they're the abortion police squad?

Maybe you could set up a council and have each proposed plastic surgery patient plead their case before the council chooses to grant or deny surgery?

Or like with abortion, you could just try to get all plastic surgery banned. It's a form of self-mutilation and I'm sure God isn't happy with a self-mutilator. God made us the way we are and we should accept that it is God's plan for us. And the folks who actually know what God thinks are the ones who will let us know what our laws should ban, medically.

I thought you didn't believe in God?

[BJean 16]

You all have reinforced my point exactly. The government shouldn't be involved in the process of a woman deciding whether or not she wants or can obtain an abortion.

rodriguez said, "I am sorry if our views aren't the same...but your views hold just as much power as mine do...I don't think you are wrong or that your belief is wrong or stupid. I'm not on here to say your belief is wrong and here's why. I am just here to say what I believe and hear what others believe and what their view is on the subject. Please don't turn this into an I'm right your wrong arguement because under our own beliefs we are all right :blushing: Belief can be whatever I want it to be. Let's just say that my view, my standing, ...what I like to call my belief."

gadget goes on to tell her why she's wrong for believing what she believes.

So which one of them are you going to vote with if someday the matter comes up on your local referendum?

If you vote with gadget the decision about who, what, when, where and how a decision is made regarding an unplanned, unwanted child or a child that is most probably deformed or handicapped, is taken completely away from you. So that's why we can't "just get along" on this issue or "agree to disagree."

We have one segment of our society wanting to force their beliefs on everyone. They want to control a woman's life when she finds herself impregnated against her wishes and in fact, in every case of pregnancy.

That's what we're arguing about here. The narrowing it down to a simple life and death - black and white - issue is their tactic to try to convince you that what they belief is the only way, truth and light on this subject. As far as the anti-choice people are concerned, no complication or issue that a pregnant woman has, is a valid reason for her to have an abortion.

The fact that they believe that is not a problem. In fact, as gadget so sweetly pointed out above, I don't agree with most late-term abortions either. But the problem is that she wants to control my right (and everyone else's) to make reproductive decisions for themselves. I can never simply agree to disagree with that. I have to fight it tooth and nail and not one link reinforcing her beliefs or her comparison of abortion to slavery is going to change the fact that she very simply wants to take away our own right to choose. She thinks her beliefs trump mine, and yours and everyone else's who happpen to disagree with her.

I ask you, how can we allow her and others who believe as she does, do that to us?

They use a whole lot of graphic photos and strong language and accusations to guilt you into feeling bad for the aborted babies. And that's exactly how they intend to change your mind on this issue. And if they have their way, you are not going to be allowed to have a differing belief on this subject. They're not only going to tell you what to believe, they want to pass a law to enforce their control over your beliefs.

[BJean 16]

pattygreen are you jumping in so you can tell us what God thinks on this subject? Why am I not surprised.

Whether I believe in God or my TV set is irrelevant to this issue. Because the real issue is about the freedom to choose one's medical and reproductive decisions.

Interestingly, the anti-choice people have tried to convince us that this is not a religious issue. They know they can't win if they come across as trying to control everyone's religious beliefs.

So some of the anti-choice people might be PM'ing you right now, asking you to back off about whether I believe in God.

[coltonwade 27]

ONCE AGAIN if you cant keep the discussion on topic and OFF each other and personal attacks we are going to have issues.

Please do not attack each other . If you have something to say to someone specially or about them personally take it off the boards ! If you CANT debate this topic calmly or rationally then DONT Debate it !!!

Thanks

Mindy

[BJean 16]

And thanks for reinforcing my point patty!

"pattygreen: You're joking, rght?! First of all, How does the fact that prochoicers didn't deliberately start out to have a litter of babies justify abortion??!! What about the health (or life) of the baby that's killed by these prochoicers? That doesn't matter? You are repelled and shocked that she feels her babies are like toys and kittens, but you're not repelled and shocked that the prochoicers feel their babies are worthless, disposable, trash to be tossed or sucked out of their uterus with a vaccuum. Wow! Did you know that there have been cases where babies are heard screaming during abortions? Did you know that science proves that babies can feel pain in the womb? It's quite amazing how you would be repelled by her decision to have a large family and not be able to care properly (IYO) for them, but not repelled by the cruel, escrutiatingly painful killing of a defenseless baby!

"prochoicers... feel their babies are worthless, disposable, trash..." "... babies are heard screaming during abortions?" "... babies can feel pain in the womb?" "... cruel, escrutiatingly(sic) painful killing of a defenseless baby!" "God help us all!"

The fact that some anti-choice folks think that the crazy lady who now has 14 children and expects the state to help her provide for them is perfectly within her rights, tells you how much these anti-choice people really care about babies.