who supports right to choose

[BJean 16]

Women also die of complications from pregnancy and childbirth.

What some of you don't understand is that some people value life too much to force babies to be brought into the world no matter what. We believe that there is such a thing as value of life. Anti-choice folks seem to think that any life is better than no life.

Well some of us just do not agree with that. Sorry, it obviously goes against some people's beliefs, but that is the way it is. Valuing life is one reason why some women will get an abortion whether it is legal or not. It is also why many people are pro-choice.

Placing value on the quality of life is also the reason why in some countries euthanasia is a choice. In this country, some people treat their dogs better than they treat people.

[BJean 16]

Yes, it is like beating our heads against the wall. They probably feel the same way. That's why this issue is the struggle that it is for people. And it is also the reason why pro-choice people cannot let these kinds of debates to go unchecked.

I am probably the oldest person posting on this thread. I lived during the time when abortion was illegal. I can tell you personal stories of women that I've known who have made the choice to abort and are incredibly thankful that they went against the law and terminated their pregnancies. Having a baby was not a choice that they could live with. That is one reason why I can't just stand back and be silent.

I know everyone gets just as tired of seeing my posts here as they do some of the others, but I will never apologize for standing up for what I know is right.

Btw, I also know women who have chosen to continue their unwanted pregnancies and have either kept their babies or given them up for adoption. For those who have given them up for adoption, there is almost always a wish that they had not made that decision. The women I know who have done it seem to have more regrets than anybody. Either it is too painful to have a child out there that they don't know, or the child has gone against the rules that were in place at the time and have searched until they have found the birth mother and that is a nightmare for some women.

I have a friend who gave up a child she carried when she was only 17. Her father, whom she loved dearly, had a sudden heart attack and died. She spent the next few months in such pain that she wound up having sex with guys to try to fill that void that her father's death left. She wasn't a bad girl. She was young, immature and grieving. She did not know who the father of her baby was. She had the child and give him up for adoption. He was born healthy. When she married, many years later, she had another child who was born with Down's Syndrome. She is my age and she still has regrets about giving up her first child.

I may have told parts of her story before. I only tell it now because some would have us believe that the decision to have a child once a woman has been impregnated is simple - it's a life, you must carry it to term. But it is not simple and every woman's story is different. Some women do have abortions for convenience. But I believe that the vast majority do it because they feel they cannot bring another life into the world, no matter what. I have known women who would prefer to take their own lives than to bring an unwanted baby into the world. That's why so many, many women had back alley abortions and that's why if the choice is taken away, women will once again find it absolutely necessary to seek back alley help. It makes no sense to take this choice away from women again.

[green 6]

My niece phoned me last night on an unrelated matter and felt compelled to tell me that she had just had an abortion. She was pregnant with twins, it seems. She felt ambivalent about the matter for she loves babies but she is already the single mother of a difficult and unlovely 10 year old who suffers from dyslexia and is a school teacher with a large mortgage and other financial headaches.

Now, she took a cooling off period. Upon learning that she was pregnant with twins, she opted out of having the abortion the same day and returned home in order to think about it.

That night she phoned my brother and asked if he and his second wife (who is unable to have children) would like them. He replied that should she opt to go through with the pregnancy, she will be in the poorhouse for the rest of her life. He also plans not to mention her offer to his wife. He himself is ambivalent about starting a second family at this late date; he is in his mid-50s and is now thinking of retirement. (We Greens are not over-fond of working. lol This runs in our family.) And his first family have cost him a bunch of bucks which were spent helping them with their univ education, buying their first houses for 'em, visiting them - they all live in Canada except for one who lives in Australia and he lives in Virginia.

Even in socialized Canada, life as a parent is expensive. Daycare is difficult to find and is costly. Healthcare is free thanks to our taxpayers. Universities, though subsidized, still cost a bunch o bucks. My niece is in her early 30s, has just begun her career as a teacher, and fights depression (something which runs in the Green family) and she has just bought herself a house. She has got herself a big mortgage to handle. Having these twins would mean that her life would become narrowed down in oh so many ways.

I am hoping that she will get over the grief and guilt and begin to see that, sadly, she had no other options open to her. I plan to do everything within my power to help her see the upside of this choice. It certainly is tough to be a single mum. She tells me that she now has the IUD.

[gadgetlady 4]

I am hoping that she will get over the grief and guilt and begin to see that, sadly, she had no other options open to her.

Green, I urge you to encourage her to seek post-abortion counseling. Many, many mothers struggle with this grief and guilt for the rest of their lives, and it can be very painful and destructive. I'm racing today and don't have a lot of time, but if you need resources please lmk. If you do need them, please provide me with the city she lives in.

[green 6]

Thanks, Gadget, for your concern. She lives in a small Canuck town outside of Toronto.

[gadgetlady 4]

I'll get you some Toronto-specific locations later on this evening, if I can find them. I've put out a couple of feelers to some groups I know locally. In the interim, there is a program that offers email-based and phone counseling. From http://www.abortionrecoverycounseling.com/:

Wow... so maybe you're pregnant, and contemplating your choices of: abortion, adoption or parenting. Or maybe you just had an abortion. Maybe your abortion was decades ago, and the emotions just keep getting harder to deal with. Whatever your situation, we can help, or refer you to someone who can. Email us your circumstance, and we'll get back to you within 12 hours or so. Here's a direct link to our email mentoring program: help@abortionrecoverycounseling.com. Or call us 24/7 at: 949-679-9276. If we're not in the office, please leave a message and we'll get back with you. If it's an emergency, please feel free to call our mobile help line at: 949-378-5149!

[BJean 16]

It's very thoughtful and generous to provide a source for someone who has recently had an abortion.

Green I am so sorry that your niece had to go through this. I am sure it is a huge help to her that you have been there and she can talk with you. If I were you, knowing that she is in a fragile frame of mind right now, I would pre-screen any counselors. Organizations that offer this kind of counseling may have good intentions, but are not always as educated and well-equipped as you hope and they sometimes have ulterior motives - like religious conversion. Something I have a feeling you would not approve of.

[gadgetlady 4]

You know, it's unfortunately very common with people on both sides of this issue to fall into an "us vs. them" mentality. I know passions burn strong on both sides, but when a young mother is struggling after an abortion decision, that's not the time to be divisive; it's the time to come together as one human being to another and offer assistance.

Most people who work in post-abortion counseling centers are there out of genuine concern, not with some ulterior motive. They're not there to change the world; they're there to pick up the pieces. Whether or not you want your niece to "rely on a higher power" to help get her through this tough time, that is certainly something you -- or preferably she -- can convey to a counselor. A good post-abortion counselor is there, first and foremost, to help their charge get through the trauma. If you talk to that counselor and make it clear to them that you don't want your niece exposed to any religion (and of course assuming your niece agrees), I'm sure that they would adhere to that preference. The goal, however, is not conversion to the pro-life cause or to any particular affiliation; it is to help post-abortive women find peace. Everyone heals in a different way, and I don't think it would be a surprise to anyone that many people who offer counseling and support do so because they've been through an abortion experience themselves and carry a burden in their heart for others who are enduring the same pain.

[BJean 16]

I'm sure that everything you said is true, gadget.

We are on opposite sides of the debate about choice, but both of us knows that women in need should never be put in the middle of a debate.

I was being sensitive to what I know are green's beliefs. And nothing I posted to her is incorrect or divisive.

[green 6]

I'm sure that everything you said is true, gadget.

We are on opposite sides of the debate about choice, but both of us knows that women in need should never be put in the middle of a debate.

I was being sensitive to what I know are green's beliefs. And nothing I posted to her is incorrect or divisive.

It is true that Green comes from a family of atheists and her niece may be vulnerable to conversion at this moment: she is dealing with the twin griefs of my cancer having returned, I am in the palliative care stage, and her abortion. Gadget, I really appreciate what you are doing for myself and my niece: are these folks affiliated with any sort of religion?

[gadgetlady 4]

It is true that Green comes from a family of atheists and her niece may be vulnerable to conversion at this moment: she is dealing with the twin griefs of my cancer having returned, I am in the palliative care stage, and her abortion. Gadget, I really appreciate what you are doing for myself and my niece: are these folks affiliated with any sort of religion?

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I was hosting a baby shower today for my friend who adopted the baby who was brought to her through LBT . It was awesome and when she told the story at the shower, everyone had tears in their eyes.

To answer your question, green: this particular organization, as I know it, is not an outreach of an organized religious denomination, but I believe the founders are Christian. They do work with churches as well as secular community outreach organizations, therapists, etc. To my knowledge, there are not any specifically atheist post-abortion counseling organizations, but while some groups are an outreach of a particular church (e.g. Rachael's Vineyard is a Catholic group), this one is not. I am confident they would respect anyone's wishes to not be "preached at", because their goal is healing from the grief after an abortion, not religious conversion.

As a comparison, Alcoholics Anonymous is believed by many to have its foundation in Christianity, and most people know they invite members to appeal "to a higher power" (there is some dispute about the origins, but this is the general understanding of the organization). Yet despite its roots, many people other than Christians have benefited from AA.

Edited March 8, 2009 by gadgetlady

[green 6]

Thanks, Gadget, for your help. It is true that I am concerned for my niece.

[BJean 16]

Saw "Revolution Road" today. I didn't know the topic, just that it had DiCaprio and Winslet and that the subject matter was intense. I'll say! Anybody else see it?

[gadgetlady 4]

Thanks, Gadget, for your help. It is true that I am concerned for my niece.

As well you should be, green. The documentation surrounding the (often silent or hidden) grief that mothers suffer after abortion is overwhelming. I know you haven't struggled at all with your decision, but it is not uncommon for those who have to turn to all sorts of unpleasant things (drugs, alcohol, etc., even leading down the path to suicide). It is a good start that she is expressing her grief to you now. The information I'm posting is from a pro-life group, but the research is nevertheless lengthy and valid: The Character of Post Abortion Syndrome - David C. Reardon..

I'm still waiting to hear back from some organizations about resources specific to Toronto. Most of my sources are US-based so I don't know how successful I'll be. I'll lyk when I know more.

[BJean 16]

As I said earlier, Gadget, it is terrific that you are providing information for green to pass on to her niece. I do hope that green's niece is able to handle the decision she made in a way that does not leave lasting scars or any regret. She has one child and I have a feeling she knows whether her decision was necessary or not. I do know that you are very involved in the anti-abortion movement and your experience is much more broad-ranged than mine. I don't spend the kind of time that you do promoting my cause.

However it has been my experience that the women that I have known personally who have opted for an abortion do not experience the kind of emotions that you referenced when you said "...but it is not uncommon for those who have to turn to all sorts of unpleasant things (drugs, alcohol, etc., even leading down the path to suicide)"

In fact I have found the opposite to be true. This is not information that I have tried to seek out. It is just my own personal experiences with women I've known either as close friends or acquaintances. These women have helped me form my opinions and beliefs about the necessity of women being being allowed to make their own choice.

The women that I'm speaking of are thankful that they made the decision that they did. They do not wish they hadn't had an abortion.

On the other hand, the women that I've known who have given up an unplanned baby for adoption are the ones who in retrospect have wished they had been able to have an abortion. They did not have that choice for several reasons: because of their religion, or because they had family or friend intervention, or the because of the guilt heaped upon them from people who believed that they knew what was better for them, or simply didn't have the choice because abortion was illegal. Unfortunately through their unfortunate experiences, they learned that the guilt from giving a child up for adoption, for them over time, became far worse than the guilt or stigma attached to terminating the pregnancy would have been.

I personally do not know one person who has been traumatized enough after an abortion to turn to drugs or suicide. But I do know women who if they had been forced to carry the baby to term, would have opted for suicide if there was no other way out of their situation.

These have been my own humble experiences and the things that have helped me form my beliefs and inspired the passion in me for fighting anyone who wants to take the choice away from women. However, it should take nothing away from anyone else's personal experiences that point to a different state of mind for women they've known and I'm certainly not arguing that women will never be grief stricken after an abortion. Every woman's state of mind and circumstances are different.

I will add that I have friends who have adopted children and for the most part, they have been thrilled that they were able to have a baby to love and raise.

But I feel I should mention my aunt who generously adopted an older child (age 6) who turned out to be mentally deranged and wound up serving time in prison. There were times when she certainly experienced some regret, expecially as it affected her biological children. I weil also tell you about my friend who went through all the laborous paperwork and home visits and all the red tape involved in adopting her daughter and the day before she picked up her week-old baby girl, found out that she was pregnant with twins (wound up being a boy and a girl). She wanted to take the adopted little girl back, but the guilt was too much to bear. Don't get me wrong. She is a great mother to all three of her children. But she certainly has experienced some regret.

Again I believe this all points to the fact that there are no simple answers to this complicated question. This is not some black and white issue that can be reduced to one single remedy for every woman. There are many, many shades of gray on this issue. And that is why allowing women to make their own choice is necessary. Taking women's legal rights away just won't work.