who supports right to choose

[babygrl1234 6]

I read this article this morning and it made me think of this thread. I haven't posted in here in probably 100 or so pages though I do read it daily. What is everyones thoughts on this?

Roe v. Wade invoked as defense in lawsuit over Wayne County jail care | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

[pattygreen 5]

Then not all those that have abortions are murderers. I definately wasn't killing with evil intent. I was ridding the fetus from society and causing it's "life" to end without evil intent (as you said)...

How do you feel about the octo mom implanting all of those embryos because she didn't wish to "kill" them by not using them...? Just wondering

She once said that with every IVF she had that she had 6 embryos implanted, yet she would only get 1 that took. Or maybe she had twins once, I'm not sure. This last time when she had 6 put in, expecting 1 more child, she had all 6 take plus 2 more. While I don't believe she did the right thing choosing to have 6 or even 7 (which was her plan) children without a husband and father in her life and without the finances to care for them on her own, I respect her choice of having them all placed instead of killing them. Carrying them herself was better than destroyng them. This is the biggest reason why IVF is controversial. There is alot of good that comes from the procedure for many, but sometimes fetus' are destroyed. If she can't raise them, there are many woman who can't have babies for whatever reason, and would love to adopt them.

As for your statement above about not having evil intent... I believe that most who have an abortion don't do it with an evil intent as murderers do. But I still must say that you and others who choose abortions still don't have a right to "rid a fetus from society causing its life to end" whether your intent is evil or not. God is the author of life and only He can make that choice on whether a life he started ends or not.

[pattygreen 5]

I read this article this morning and it made me think of this thread. I haven't posted in here in probably 100 or so pages though I do read it daily. What is everyones thoughts on this?

Roe v. Wade invoked as defense in lawsuit over Wayne County jail care | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing it. I think that if the prison guards were doing their job and came to her when the other prisonrs were calling them, frantically, instead of ignoring them for 2 hours, her baby would have been born in the hospital instead of in the cell and there would have been the equipment there to resusitate the baby. Chelsie is now in need of care at all times due to their negligence, so they should be held accountable. Using the Roe vs Wade as a defense for themselves is ridiculous.

[BJean 16]

"I believe that most who have an abortion don't do it with an evil intent as murderers do. But I still must say that you and others who choose abortions still don't have a right to "rid a fetus from society causing its life to end" whether your intent is evil or not. God is the author of life and only He can make that choice on whether a life he started ends or not."

Let's get this straight: God authors all lives, right? If that is true, why would it be okay to end any life (as in capital punishment) just because that person has made mistakes?

Perhaps this dichotomy is why so many people cannot embrace fundamentalist religions that swear that they know the proper interpretation of the Bible.

Many, many, many fertilized eggs never make it into the 3rd month of gestation, beating heart or not. Life at that point is extremely fragile and it is the best time for a mistake that has been made (an unwanted pregnancy, by rape, incest or whatever the reason) to be corrected. Yes, you heard that right - a mistake. Rant all you want, there is no way that God is present when a woman is brutally raped and at that moment God chooses to impregnate the woman. Or in other cases where a woman gets pregnant against her wises. It makes absolutely no sense.

As was pointed out earlier, people are fallible and God does not judge harshly those who have been taken advantage of or those who make mistakes. Abortion is just as acceptible and legitimate a medical procedure as IVF. It SAVES lives. Granted, not the ones you care about. And research that may save lives, like stem cell research, is also an acceptible procedure.

Some people fail to realize that we're not living in the time when the Bible was written. Life progresses, the entire earth and its' inhabitants have changed drastically in the past 2000 years. Churches have changed. Sermons have changed. Interpretations of the Bible have changed. Why doesn't God update the Bible? He's left that up to man? And yet men are wrong so much of the time as has always been true throughout the ages. Makes it tough on the fundamentalists who depend on their single-minded interpretation of a compliation of books that may have been inspired by God but that has been written by mere mortals.

[Carrie_C 9]

I can understand why octomom wouldn't want the embryos destroyed, but I think she shuld have donated them.

[green 6]

Where, oh, where is God these days? Why doesn't He manifest Himself, except in the person of His hall monitor, Pattygreen? This absence is why Green finds it so difficult to believe in Him.... Why, it is easier to believe in Bill Maher than it is to believe in God/Allah/Jaweh.

[rodriguezequal 3]

She once said that with every IVF she had that she had 6 embryos implanted, yet she would only get 1 that took. Or maybe she had twins once, I'm not sure. This last time when she had 6 put in, expecting 1 more child, she had all 6 take plus 2 more. While I don't believe she did the right thing choosing to have 6 or even 7 (which was her plan) children without a husband and father in her life and without the finances to care for them on her own, I respect her choice of having them all placed instead of killing them. Carrying them herself was better than destroyng them. This is the biggest reason why IVF is controversial. There is alot of good that comes from the procedure for many, but sometimes fetus' are destroyed. If she can't raise them, there are many woman who can't have babies for whatever reason, and would love to adopt them.

As for your statement above about not having evil intent... I believe that most who have an abortion don't do it with an evil intent as murderers do. But I still must say that you and others who choose abortions still don't have a right to "rid a fetus from society causing its life to end" whether your intent is evil or not. God is the author of life and only He can make that choice on whether a life he started ends or not.

So you are saying that she made the right decision implanting 6 embryos when she already had 6 kids some special needs kids and using food stamos and school loans to care for them living in her parents 3 bedroom home? Also I took the quote "rid from society and causing life to end" from what you had written which is why in my post it was in qoutes. I think she made the wrong choice by doing what she did. She had no business bringing in even 1 more child let alone 8 into this world. She should have either donated the embryos to a women with no kids or that wanted it and deserved to have a baby or have them destroyed. Oh and yes she did have twins. She made a mistake having this many children that she cannot care for!

[pattygreen 5]

"I believe that most who have an abortion don't do it with an evil intent as murderers do. But I still must say that you and others who choose abortions still don't have a right to "rid a fetus from society causing its life to end" whether your intent is evil or not. God is the author of life and only He can make that choice on whether a life he started ends or not."

Let's get this straight: God authors all lives, right? If that is true, why would it be okay to end any life (as in capital punishment) just because that person has made mistakes?

Simply because God says it is. He is a just God and some people who committ horrible crimes deserve to die for their crimes. All victims cry out for justice. Some crimes, which God deems less serious are not deserving of death, but there will be consequences none the less.

Perhaps this dichotomy is why so many people cannot embrace fundamentalist religions that swear that they know the proper interpretation of the Bible.

I don't like religion. I don't have religion either. What I have is a relationship with my creator. All religions are the same to me. Organized groups who think they have the truth and are 'working' on a way to get to heaven and be with God. God didn't make it so complicating. He gave us a book to read that answers all our questions and tells us what we need to know to get from here to there. He didn't make it impossible for man to understand.

Many, many, many fertilized eggs never make it into the 3rd month of gestation, beating heart or not. Life at that point is extremely fragile and it is the best time for a mistake that has been made (an unwanted pregnancy, by rape, incest or whatever the reason) to be corrected. Yes, you heard that right - a mistake. Rant all you want, there is no way that God is present when a woman is brutally raped and at that moment God chooses to impregnate the woman. Or in other cases where a woman gets pregnant against her wises. It makes absolutely no sense.

God is present everywhere at all times. It doesn't mean he is happy about the way humans treat other humans. If a baby is formed because of a rape, it is because one of the consequences of the sexual act is pregnancy. It's not because God put the baby there. But once a sperm and an egg join, immediately He places a soul into its very being and its cells start to multiply.

As was pointed out earlier, people are fallible and God does not judge harshly those who have been taken advantage of or those who make mistakes. Abortion is just as acceptible and legitimate a medical procedure as IVF. It SAVES lives. Granted, not the ones you care about. And research that may save lives, like stem cell research, is also an acceptible procedure.

Whether he judges harshly or not, I do not know. I only know that all will be judged for the deeds done in the flesh one day. I don't agree that abortion is as acceptable as IVF. But I do agree it is legal. How does abortion save lives? Research that uses aborted fetus' stem cells, to me, is not an accepteble procedure. Especially when it has been proven that adult stem cells can be used to accomplish the same results.

Some people fail to realize that we're not living in the time when the Bible was written. Life progresses, the entire earth and its' inhabitants have changed drastically in the past 2000 years. Churches have changed. Sermons have changed. Interpretations of the Bible have changed. Why doesn't God update the Bible? He's left that up to man? And yet men are wrong so much of the time as has always been true throughout the ages. Makes it tough on the fundamentalists who depend on their single-minded interpretation of a compliation of books that may have been inspired by God but that has been written by mere mortals.

It has to do with 'faith'. God has protected the bible through the ages, therefore it doesn't need to be updated. God inspired Men to write the bible. Think about this... The very first child born to Adam and Eve murdered his own brother. As you can see, man has not changed at all since then. Sin was just as bad then as it is today. Nothing has changed really.

This may be hard to understand, but the bible is referred to as a 'living' book. Meaning that as each person reads it, God uses the verses to speak to them directly through it. He knows your circumstances and by his Holy Spirit, He speaks to you personally. He did not want it to be hard for anyone to understand it. He says that the wisdom of man is foolishness in His eyes. Meaning all those who are supposed to be intelligent (philosophers, scholars, priests, etc.) and say "this is what this means in the bible" are not so smart. He has made the bible understandable for anyone, like you or me, who wishes to know what God wants to say to them.

[pattygreen 5]

Where, oh, where is God these days? Why doesn't He manifest Himself, except in the person of His hall monitor, Pattygreen? This absence is why Green finds it so difficult to believe in Him.... Why, it is easier to believe in Bill Maher than it is to believe in God/Allah/Jaweh.

God is right there waiting patiently for you to acknowledge Him.

[pattygreen 5]

So you are saying that she made the right decision implanting 6 embryos when she already had 6 kids some special needs kids and using food stamos and school loans to care for them living in her parents 3 bedroom home?

No, she didn't make any right decisions.

Also I took the quote "rid from society and causing life to end" from what you had written which is why in my post it was in qoutes.

Oh, ok.

I think she made the wrong choice by doing what she did. She had no business bringing in even 1 more child let alone 8 into this world. She should have either donated the embryos to a women with no kids or that wanted it and deserved to have a baby or have them destroyed. Oh and yes she did have twins. She made a mistake having this many children that she cannot care for!

I didn't know you could donate your fertilized eggs. But, if this is so, then I agree. She should have done that.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Yes you can choose to donate the eggs just like you could donate sperm...or a child that is already born. She said that she couldn't do that because she was thier mother and she did not want one of her children growing up not knowing her, she said that just knowing her baby could be out there somewhere made her sad...I saw a car in front of me today and the whole back end was covered in Pro-life bumper stickers...the one that caught my attention the most said: Abstinence=freedom...I was like What?!?! lol. They had so really crazy bumper stickers on that car...that is the difference between pro life and choice, most pro life bumper stickers just state pro choice, a women's choice and what not...they don't say things like abortions are the way to go...yay for abortions or have a picture of a battered/abused child and say abortion could have saved me...lol. I mean come on some of the things they say are just ridiculous and they shouldn't be posted everywhere for little kids to see...anyways to each their own

[gadgetlady 4]

I read this article this morning and it made me think of this thread. I haven't posted in here in probably 100 or so pages though I do read it daily. What is everyones thoughts on this?

Roe v. Wade invoked as defense in lawsuit over Wayne County jail care | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

It's a fascinating argument, really. If the unborn baby had zero rights prior to birth (as is evidenced by current abortion laws), can the prison be held responsible for something that happened to her during the time she had zero rights?

It actually exposes the dichotomy of abortion on many levels. The killer of a pregnant mother can be liable for two murders, yet if a mother has an abortion, she is not liable for the killing of the baby alone. A mother can freely seek an abortion at any time and not be held liable, but if a doctor performs an abortion on her without her consent, he is liable for the baby's murder. If a mother wants an abortion and the father does not, he has no rights. But if the father wants an abortion and the mother does not, he also has no rights and is on the hook for child support. The problem that exists with all of these and other obvious dichotomies is that the value of the baby is determined solely based on what's in the mother's mind. If she decides the baby is a human being, poof, he is a human being. If she decides he is not, he has no rights whatsoever. There are only two people there if she decides there are two people there.

Why should we legally rely on another person's mental validation for us to exist?

[gadgetlady 4]

I saw a car in front of me today and the whole back end was covered in Pro-life bumper stickers...the one that caught my attention the most said: Abstinence=freedom...I was like What?!?! lol. They had so really crazy bumper stickers on that car...that is the difference between pro life and choice, most pro life bumper stickers just state pro choice, a women's choice and what not...they don't say things like abortions are the way to go...yay for abortions or have a picture of a battered/abused child and say abortion could have saved me...lol. I mean come on some of the things they say are just ridiculous and they shouldn't be posted everywhere for little kids to see...anyways to each their own

I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying here, but the bumper sticker combination that always amazes me is "Keep abortion safe and legal" combined with "Save the whales". Things that make you go hmmmm.

[Carrie_C 9]

The reason the woman has all of the say is because it is her body. And she is the main one who is going to have to take care of the kid. But I see what you are saying about the father. I think if a man doesn't want to have anything to do with the child, then he shouldn't have to pay child support. I don't see why he is forced to take care of a child he doesn't want. But if the woman doesn't want it, it is ok to abort. I don't see the logic there either.

[rodriguezequal 3]

I'm not sure I completely understand what you're saying here, but the bumper sticker combination that always amazes me is "Keep abortion safe and legal" combined with "Save the whales". Things that make you go hmmmm.

It's not that it amazes me...I find it strange that pro life stickers are not only saying say no, and life is life, but also say things such as This is murder, and you could have saved me...Pictures of children saying what if she was an abortion...just things that I think aren't something that I would want my young child to see when we are driving around...protesters and stuff like that...you don't see any Pro-choicers standing in front of churches protesting that they are wrong and all churches should be shut down because they are against abortions...I was just pointing out differences.