Okay, they are doing construction in the apartment next to us. 8am and they start drilling and hammering. I haven't had any decent sleep in 4 days! We are leaving in another month why couldn't they wait?! BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...........ok, I feel better.

Actually, Lucy, your politics would be considered fairly mainstream up here in Canada. Same sex marriage and prostitution are legal up here. Our last government was trying to decriminalize simple possession of marijuana but had to give into pressures exerted by Washington to drop this initiative. Our gun laws are much more stringent. I've almost never met anyone who has fired a gun and nobody I know owns one.

Lucy I'm not sure I understand either. If you do not break the laws, even though you disagree with them, how can you condone those who do?

I disagree with certain laws too, like marijuana and prostitution. But I don't smoke dope and I don't earn money turning tricks and I don't condone the behavior of those who do, even though I think that prostitution and smoking marijuana only harm the perpetrators.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. As far as I'm concerned one shouldn't choose to run through a red light even if no one is within 10 miles of you and it is safe to run it, because it is against the law. It might not make sense on the face of it at that second, but it is against the law and one should be in the mindset of always obeying the law.

When I disagree with a law I do become vocal about it and I am quite sure that I vote for candidates with my values (or at least who say they have similar values.) Otherwise as long as we have laws on the books that decree that we must not run red lights, that we must not smoke, grow or deal in marijuana, or practice prostitution or come across the border without legal documentation, that is what I will do and what I expect all of the other citizens to do. Yes that may be naive of me and too simplistic but with millions and millions of us bumping elbows at every turn, it is the only way we can peacefully and fairly live together.

Lucy I'm not sure I understand either. If you do not break the laws, even though you disagree with them, how can you condone those who do?

I disagree with certain laws too, like marijuana and prostitution. But I don't smoke dope and I don't earn money turning tricks and I don't condone the behavior of those who do, even though I think that prostitution and smoking marijuana only harm the perpetrators.

Breaking the law is breaking the law. As far as I'm concerned one shouldn't choose to run through a red light even if no one is within 10 miles of you and it is safe to run it, because it is against the law. It might not make sense on the face of it at that second, but it is against the law and one should be in the mindset of always obeying the law.

When I disagree with a law I do become vocal about it and I am quite sure that I vote for candidates with my values (or at least who say they have similar values.) Otherwise as long as we have laws on the books that decree that we must not run red lights, that we must not smoke, grow or deal in marijuana, or practice prostitution or come across the border without legal documentation, that is what I will do and what I expect all of the other citizens to do. Yes that may be naive of me and too simplistic but with millions and millions of us bumping elbows at every turn, it is the only way we can peacefully and fairly live together.

I am quite law abiding in general, and I agree that one should generally have a mindset of always obeying the law.

BUT - I do believe that there are situations where obeying the law conflicts with a persons values to a degree that is intolerable, and the person needs to be true to their own values before being true to the law. I believe that people who went to Canada to escape the draft were law breakers, but I would have done the same in a second if I had found myself in that position. There have always been examples of what is known as "civil disobedience." Does the "Boston Tea Party" ring a bell? How about the lifetime acts of Mahatma Gandi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. So for me, I do believe that there are situations where the law must go out the window.

With respect to immigration, I understand everyone's frustration, and I am for tighter immigration laws. But I can also say this without the slightest hesitation: If I saw my family suffering I would have crossed the border illegally in a Nuevo York minute. And I would have done it over and over and over again, no matter what it took. Think what you want of me, but there is no question but that is what I would have done.

And to be honest, I think the same is true of every one of you. Which, by the way, is a sign of my respect for you.

Mark, you are quite right, of course.

If I were a woman who found herself wholly burdened with an unplanned, unwanted, impossible pregnancy, and abortion were illegal, I would break that law.

I am quite law abiding in general, and I agree that one should generally have a mindset of always obeying the law.

BUT - I do believe that there are situations where obeying the law conflicts with a persons values to a degree that is intolerable, and the person needs to be true to their own values before being true to the law. I believe that people who went to Canada to escape the draft were law breakers, but I would have done the same in a second if I had found myself in that position. There have always been examples of what is known as "civil disobedience." Does the "Boston Tea Party" ring a bell? How about the lifetime acts of Mahatma Gandi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. So for me, I do believe that there are situations where the law must go out the window.

With respect to immigration, I understand everyone's frustration, and I am for tighter immigration laws. But I can also say this without the slightest hesitation: If I saw my family suffering I would have crossed the border illegally in a Nuevo York minute. And I would have done it over and over and over again, no matter what it took. Think what you want of me, but there is no question but that is what I would have done.

And to be honest, I think the same is true of every one of you. Which, by the way, is a sign of my respect for you.

Mark, I like you more and more.

I know that this is a bit of thread crossing, but I was involved with helping out the draft evaders who came up here to Canada. These were, for the most part, highly principled young men who also happened to be illegal aliens. There was a fair amount of resentment from some quarters about how much they were costing, however, now it's generally agreed that they have enriched our country to a high degree. Although not obvious at first it has been a mutually beneficial situation.

My first husband was too stoopid to evade the draft and move to Canada. Like the chump that he was, he left college, trooped off to boot camp, guerilla warfare training and Officer's Candidate School, and then to 'Nam. He and one other young man were the only two in his original outfit that weren't either killed or severely wounded. They claimed they got a case of tick fever once, but I figured it was some STD they picked up on R & R. We were both stoopid, but one of us not quite as stoopid as the other. I'm with you guys... if someone passed a law that said I had to go to Iraq, believe me, I would head for Green's place.

Someone once said that Canada received the "creme of American youth".

There is a town in this province that was a centre for their settlement that recently arranged to have a ceremony and some sort of commemorating plaque or statue. The town wanted to acknowledge both their courage their contribution. This was all cancelled at the last minute due to hawkish pressure from both Canadians and Americans.

I read something about that, Devana, but don't know all the details.

Wow I'm impressed with the sense and sensibilities of a lot of you Cannucks!

There's a couple who live across the street from me, he's a sociology prof and she is a family lawyer, who came up to Canada during the time of the Vietnam War. The sad thing now is that our immigration rules have changed and our new crop of evaders who have landed here will likely be sent back home. These are young men who have enlisted and have sometimes been sent over for a tour of duty in Iraq. They have come home and find that they don't want to go over there and so they and their young families have crossed the border. With our current immigration rules their only option is to plead refugee status and so far this seems to be going unsuccessfully.

Of course until recently our new Conservative minority government had been making super nice with BuSh and company. The mess over the Maher Arar situation has served to cool the love affair off somewhat. The demand that all folks crossing the Canadian-U.S. border present passports hasn't won Washington many friends in our capital, either, for this has thrown up a serious barrier to tourism and trade which customarily goes on between our two countries.

Not much worse for a country than to be hit in the pocketbook. Unless it's to be hit by bombs.

Come to think of it you guys better shape up or Dubya might decide you are in need of a Democratic government patterned after our own. Anyway he'd claim he needed to bomb your cities because your country was a direct threat since you sent those damned terrorists over to kill us. Then he'd proudly announce that his actions have prevented anymore terrorist activies on our soil.

I miss TOM. Any clue what's happened to him?

Yah, I can imagine that there are a few folks who inhabit the right in Washington who would be happy to invade Canada.:Banane40: After all, it was Pat Robertson who called us Soviet Canuckistan and members of our previous government ran afoul of Washington by virtue of their thinly, very thinly veiled contempt for BuSh and his gang. Diplomatic relations between the two countries were certainly at a low until our new Conservative government took office.:paranoid

Yep, I miss TOM, too. His comments were always interesting and well-thought out. I hope he comes home soon.

Of course until recently our new Conservative minority government had been making super nice with BuSh and company.

I know, it made me want to hurl.

I read something about that, Devana, but don't know all the details.

Green, the town was Nelson BC and I believe it was within the last couple of years.

Yep, Devana, I had been feeling the same queasy way. In fact I hadn't been feeling in this much need of political Gravol since Mulroney had his giant chin up Reagan's arse. But it would appear that our Conservative government is turning out to be a more unusual animal than we had thought and it may actually have a backbone! It seems to have stood up to the rednecks who wanted to undo the legislation allowing same sex marriages, we women still have the right to choose, and the government seems to have stood up to Bush and his whacked out Attorney guy in this business of l'affaire Arar. Quelle surprise!

I do, nevertheless, dress to the left of this party, eh.

I haven't been here in 24 hours and I'm glad to see all the Canucks who back me up. I looked into moving to Toronto at one point and I love Neil Young, so I feel a little camraderie here. Eh?

Anyway, as many others have pointed out, there are ways to condone law-breaking without partaking. I am not interested in becoming a prostitute and weed is not my thing. There happen to be many laws that I don't agree with that do not directly affect my life. So I am pretty law-abiding, but I don't have a problem with others who choose to disobey some of them. I am with the previous posters who mentioned hypothetical situations about what if abortion was illegal or what if I was drafted.

My point is that I don't think we should all go out and break the law Judas-Priest-style, but I believe in certain things that do not align with all of the laws this puritanically based government has created. In certain instances I belive it is important to stand up for your beliefs and not do what the government wants you to.

I have morals and ethics and standards -- the laws that I agree with correspond with my worldview. For example, I think the "do not murder" law is a pretty good one and I would not condone anyone breaking that. So lest anyone take my previous statements to an extreme and say things like "so if you are for breaking the law, does that mean we should all go out and steal and kill and rape?". Because that's not what I'm saying and I think I've made myself pretty clear.

Now, back to Canada, has anyone ever been to Grano on Younge St. in Toronto? That is my favorite restaurant in the world....