Should this bill pass, or not? Wouldn't you think that a group of black Christians would be the first to uphold the rights of, and seek protection for, other minorities? What about white Christians? Is it so important to you that your minister be allowed to preach against gays that you would oppose this legislation, which might actually save lives?

Ministers oppose shield for gays

By HAMIL R. HARRIS

The Washington Post

WASHINGTON -- A coalition of conservative African-American religious leaders is lobbying Congress to reject a bill that would extend federal hate-crimes laws to cover gays, saying they fear it would prevent them from preaching against homosexuality.

Several ministers last week urged House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers, D-Mich., a sponsor of the bill, and other members of the Congressional Black Caucus to vote against the proposed Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act.

They say it would pin the hate-crime label on their sermons against homosexuality, which they consider a sin.

"This bill will offer a status for gays, lesbians and transgender people under the equal protection status that can muzzle the black church," said Bishop Harry Jackson, pastor of Hope Christian Church in suburban Lanham, Md.

Gay activists compare the bill to civil rights legislation of the 1960s.

I hope you're right about this. Although, how one person could be so right just astounds me.

You are young. You have a long life ahead of you, I hope. I can't tell you how much one person can change throughout their years. Please don't allow your heart to be so hardened. There is so much before you that you can't possibly even begin to know.

If I am to be a 'lunatic' in your eyes, then so be it. But, I will never go back to where I began.

Wait, where did I say you were a lunatic? I was referring to the people featured on the shows I have watched on bible prophecy, as well as the people who have, through the years, made a huge fuss and bother over the "the end of the world" coming on some certain date because the bible said that's the date it would end.

I remember back in college (oh, and I'm really not that young, when I say "back in college" I'm going back nearly 20 years), there was some huge to-do on campus about "the world will end on (some date I don't remember but I think the year was 1988.) It was all over the news about how people were going up to mountains to pray and wait for the actual day, etc. And people were walking around campus distributing leaflets about it and they were insisting that "bible prophesy" stated that this particular date would be the end of the world.

I always wondered what these people did after the date passed. Since they had basically dedicated their lives to this be "the" date and doing everything to prepare for it. I wonder about the looks on their faces when they prayed all night on the mountains and then it became the next day. Ummm... I guess maybe they felt embarrassed? I don't quite know but it's interesting to think about.

Through the years I have also heard of this happening on other dates as well, and they always have some complex mathmatical calculation based on bible prophesy. But, here we all still are.

So, no, I don't think that bible prophecy amounts to a sack of Beans. Every time I see one of these shows they're always saying these vague, general things the bible says and they say it means this or it means that.

When someone can show me where, in the bible it says something specific, using exact names of current people, places and things, then perhaps I wil reconsider my opinion. Oh, and nothing about "nations going to war" because that is very broad-reaching and as long as we have nations, it is not surprising in the least that many of them, at some point, might be at war with each other. Also not surprising is prophesy of a certain nation being taken over by another and "destroyed". Back when this stuff was written, nations were being taken over right and left! So it's not shocking that even something written 1,000 years before it occurred, about war or "destruction" of a nation eventually came to pass. Nations are always at war with each other! And for thousands of years the order of the day was conquering and taking over places. How about some non-war prophecies?

So, you find me a bible passage that does not need to be "interpreted" and that specifically states something about today using proper names (for example, "On December 7, 1941, the Japanese will bomb Pearl Harbor.) and I will be very interested to read about it. I'm not interested in Old Testament prophesy being "fulfilled" in the New Testament, since it is very simple to pick up a book and expand on it. I could pick up any book written hundreds of years ago and write a continuation of the story that seems like a continuation of the same book, but that doesn't make me a prophet. Similarly, if someone laid out a scenario for a character in a book, I could pick out those characteristics and craft a great story using all of them. It's not rocket science.

And as for my heart being hardened, I really don't believe that to be so. I feel I am very openminded, I read a tremendous amount, I research, and I love learning. I have a very inquisitive mind and heart.

There should be a law stating that if you target a person because of their race, religion or sexual preference it's a hate crime.

You're muddying the waters.

People who attack the military are called terrorists and as we're fully aware they get shipped off to Guantanamo faster than you can spit. No trial, no judgment, just prison.

People who target gay, black and hispanic and Asians are doing it out of hatred of a specific group, and it's so common that we do need a law.

Right on! You have said it perfectly.

Look this is it in a nut shell. I don't like a homosexuals life style (there I said it). But I don't hate them or want physical harm to happen to them. I just want them to see that the way they live is not right. And if they don't then so be it I can not change them. I would expect someone to tell me if I was doing something morally wrong. And I do plenty wrong. But I'm not wrong for the way I belive. It is amazing too me how people put down the Bible, and blame all the problems they have created on GOD. the orgins of the Bible has been around for around 5000 yrs. You tell me somthing else that has been around that long, that could withstand generation after generation trying to disprove it. and it is a gateway to the future,past and present. The last books which were written 1900 yrs ago tell of our days now, and how there would be a falling away of the faith and homosexuality would be common. Well look around the sin that was thought of (only a generation ago) as sick and underground. Is now main stream to the world, so many things have come true that is in the Bible and not one has been proved flawed. So if we have these answers, why don't we use them. The truth is that many that don't belive in the bible has not studied it

I was in the mission once to prove it wrong. I grew up in Church. And when I was an adult I wanted to know that what I was told about JESUS was true I started living in the world and I was thinking the way some of you think. And I tried to disprove the Bible. I could not do it I have read alot and There is some very direct things that could not be orchestrated that were written about JESUS 700 yrs before he was born. And many things that happen in modern history that was written long ago. Now I don't know all there is to know about GOD he is infinite and I'm finite. But I know he love me, as bad as I am. He love you whoever you are and he even loves you if your a homosexual. I know that, and the reson I know this is because while yet I was still a sinner he sent he's son to die for me and all of us. As much as he loves us though someone has to pay for our sins(mine and your's Mine have been paid for by CHRIST) The question is will you let him Pay for yours? The wages of sin is death. He has already died for the sins of man, will you accept it?

You state in your lengthy communique that "people put down the Bible, and blame all the problems they have created on God." In fact we do not, for those of us who are liberal-minded Christians blame individuals like yourself, the narrow-minded fundamentalists, not God, and those of us who are atheists wouldn't dream of blaming God, either, for we hold no belief at all that one exists. Indeed, for those of us - Christian and non-Christian alike - who do believe in the scientific findings which indicate that the Earth has been around for billions of years and that even mankind has a long history which predates the Bible, the 5000 years which you give us as its timeline doesn't seem all that impressive. Your opinions on homosexuality and abortion are simply that - your opinions - and other people will of course have theirs.

Wait, where did I say you were a lunatic?

I believe in Bible Prophecy. So I must be a lunatic. Which is okay with me. I don't think any person knows what day 'the end of the world' will be. I make no fuss. I only want to be ready when the day comes and I do believe it will. God hasn't set a date, in fact, it wouldn't make sense to have a date. People tend to procrastinate. He knows that. It wouldn't make much sense to just live as we please then on the day that was pre-determined, we all decided we want to believe in Jesus to save our hineys from the horrors that are prophecied to happen. He wants us to willingly turn to Him, out of love and faith that He existed. Not just be a fair-weather friend, when it's convenient. But, I certainly can understand what you mean. I've seen those shows as well and I have had the same thoughts as you. Today, not so much, although there are lunatics in almost every crowd.

I was referring to the people featured on the shows I have watched on bible prophecy, as well as the people who have, through the years, made a huge fuss and bother over the "the end of the world" coming on some certain date because the bible said that's the date it would end.

I remember back in college (oh, and I'm really not that young, when I say "back in college" I'm going back nearly 20 years), there was some huge to-do on campus about "the world will end on (some date I don't remember but I think the year was 1988.) It was all over the news about how people were going up to mountains to pray and wait for the actual day, etc. And people were walking around campus distributing leaflets about it and they were insisting that "bible prophesy" stated that this particular date would be the end of the world.

I always wondered what these people did after the date passed. Since they had basically dedicated their lives to this be "the" date and doing everything to prepare for it. I wonder about the looks on their faces when they prayed all night on the mountains and then it became the next day. Ummm... I guess maybe they felt embarrassed? I don't quite know but it's interesting to think about.

They probably were a bit embarrassed, but I'd say more disappointed. But, I'm thinking God, being God, kinda laughs a bit when we try to second guess Him.

Through the years I have also heard of this happening on other dates as well, and they always have some complex mathmatical calculation based on bible prophesy. But, here we all still are.

So, no, I don't think that bible prophecy amounts to a sack of Beans. Every time I see one of these shows they're always saying these vague, general things the bible says and they say it means this or it means that.

When someone can show me where, in the bible it says something specific, using exact names of current people, places and things, then perhaps I wil reconsider my opinion. Oh, and nothing about "nations going to war" because that is very broad-reaching and as long as we have nations, it is not surprising in the least that many of them, at some point, might be at war with each other. Also not surprising is prophesy of a certain nation being taken over by another and "destroyed". Back when this stuff was written, nations were being taken over right and left! So it's not shocking that even something written 1,000 years before it occurred, about war or "destruction" of a nation eventually came to pass. Nations are always at war with each other! And for thousands of years the order of the day was conquering and taking over places. How about some non-war prophecies?

So, you find me a bible passage that does not need to be "interpreted" and that specifically states something about today using proper names (for example, "On December 7, 1941, the Japanese will bomb Pearl Harbor.) and I will be very interested to read about it. I'm not interested in Old Testament prophesy being "fulfilled" in the New Testament, since it is very simple to pick up a book and expand on it. I could pick up any book written hundreds of years ago and write a continuation of the story that seems like a continuation of the same book, but that doesn't make me a prophet. Similarly, if someone laid out a scenario for a character in a book, I could pick out those characteristics and craft a great story using all of them. It's not rocket science.

And as for my heart being hardened, I really don't believe that to be so. I feel I am very openminded, I read a tremendous amount, I research, and I love learning. I have a very inquisitive mind and heart.

Thank you very much for this civil response. I respect that we all find ourselves in different places in our lives. I have rejected God in my life. I have relied on 'self' alone. I have thought I had all the answers. Today, when I look back, I can't believe how naive I really was. Even more, I can't believe how humbling myself just a little has changed everything. My only regret is that I could have done it sooner. But, each of us have our own journey. I understand.

I guess it would be impossible to remove God from the discussion of this bill?

I guess it would be impossible to remove God from the discussion of this bill?

It would be possible if the majority of people opposing it weren't Christians.

A fact I still find highly ironic.

It seems whenever Christians debate anything, it all goes back to God. I have no trouble discussing it without bringing up God and would be more than happy to do so.

I guess it would be impossible to remove God from the discussion of this bill?

It would not be impossible, but it would limit the relevance of the discussion. We have two facts here: (1) a bill is being considered that would provide protection against hate crimes for gay men and women, and (2) the overwhelming majority of people opposed to the bill have personal religious beliefs that gays are "sinners" engaging in "abominable" acts.

Statistically speaking, it seems fair to make a connection here: that religion has something to do with opposition to this bill. Removing God from the discussion leaves much less to talk about.

Well, as seeing as I can no longer post anything more that I dislike about this bill and it has nothing to do with Gays, and the non Christians keep throwing that in my face, I suppose we have nothing left to debate.

Well, as seeing as I can no longer post anything more that I dislike about this bill and it has nothing to do with Gays, and the non Christians keep throwing that in my face, I suppose we have nothing left to debate.

Why don't you try saying what's on your mind and see what happens. I'm not interested in throwing anything in your face. I just think that in most cases, people who state "non-religious" reasons for disliking this bill are mainly uncomfortable with how the bill may be seen to "endorse" the "gay lifestyle." If that is not true with you, then I would welcome hearing what is on your mind.

Dang, how many more times do I have to say what I already did?

Be gay, be happy being gay, get married, adopt kids. I dont care. Its your right!

And personally I think, and many of my Christian friend vehemently dissagree with me on this, I think if a Gay person has let a good life and believes in God and that one sin keeps him outta heaven, the Hetero's better watch out, because there are a lot of sins on that "keep you outta heaven list" just as bad.

Im also pro-choice.

I also believe in evolution.

And I believe in God.

But darn it, I just dont like the wording on the bill.