Finally, this barbaric practice can end!!!!

That's why they call him "Tiller the Killer". Doe v. Bolton, the companion case, guaranteed abortion through all 9 month of pregnancy for the reason of "health of the mother", with health being defined to include mental health in the determination of one physician. That one physician can be the abortionist. Since, as we all know, "mental health" can be very loosely defined and would likely be very loosely defined by the guy making money off the abortion, there is in essence no prohibition on late-term abortion (with the exception, now, of this specific procedure -- which was specifically instituted to avoid the "complication" of live birth).

Sheesh -- I hate this edit function. I meant to add "the companion case to Roe v. Wade". Late-term abortions, in other words up until 9 months of pregnancy, have been legal since Roe v. Wade was decided.

You're going to ensure that a Democrat is elected in 2008.

And that will make me very, very, happy!

Although I am pro choice I personally find the concept of a post-viability abortion to be utterly repulsive unless there is something medically very wrong with either the foetus or the mother. I would be comfortable with legislation that would block abortion as an option at this stage of the pregnancy. My only concern would be that such a law might slow down the performance of the procedure if in fact it was required for urgent medical reasons; for with laws and exemptions there come protocols which must be followed and it always takes time to do the paperwork.

I believe that any woman who has allowed her pregnancy to continue to the stage where the foetus may be considered a viable baby has already made her choice. At this point she has a different set of choices to make: will she choose to keep the child or give it to a couple who are unable to have a child and dearly desire one.

The only person I ever knew personally who had a late term abortion (she was about 7 months, but lied to the doctor about the date of her last period) chose to terminate the pregnancy because she and the baby-daddy broke up.

She had what is commonly called a "salting out" procedure, which is pretty gruesome, but not as bad as the partial birth abortion.

I worked with the woman but totally lost all respect for her after the abortion fiasco. Sorry, but I just cannot agree that getting dumped by your boyfriend is a good enough reason to terminate a 7 month pregnancy. I think she did it just for spite, because he wanted her to have the child and let him raise it.

The only person I ever knew personally who had a late term abortion (she was about 7 months, but lied to the doctor about the date of her last period) chose to terminate the pregnancy because she and the baby-daddy broke up.

She had what is commonly called a "salting out" procedure, which is pretty gruesome, but not as bad as the partial birth abortion.

I worked with the woman but totally lost all respect for her after the abortion fiasco. Sorry, but I just cannot agree that getting dumped by your boyfriend is a good enough reason to terminate a 7 month pregnancy. I think she did it just for spite, because he wanted her to have the child and let him raise it.

The saline procedure is just awful. It basically burns the baby from the inside out, often burning off parts of the skin. The mother feels the thrashing of the baby as he or she is dying, and then delivers a dead baby (usually; sometimes the baby survives).

As to the reason for the abortion, that's not an uncommon reason.

A lot of people assume all abortions are done because of failed birth-control, but that's just not the case. I know a woman who aborted because she and her husband had a long-awaited trip to Hawaii planned and she wanted to look good in a bathing suit. She figured she could just get pregnant again later.

You know, marjon, I was thinking this morning about how you've objected to my use of the term "abortionist" throughout this thread, and how I just figured out recently that you didn't realize I meant "person who performs abortions" -- which may have caused you to miss the entire point of some of my early posts. I referenced, several times, "former abortionists". I meant, literally, people who used to perform abortions and are now pro-life. One of the most famous is Bernard Nathanson, who was one of the founders of NARAL (now the National Abortion Rights Action League) and who, as an athiest, came to the position that abortion is the taking of a human life.

If you have any interest in the stories of these men and women who used to provide abortions, you can go to:

Former abortionists expose abortion!

Meet the Abortion Providers

Excerpts from the Abortion Quotes Website (ChooseBirth.com)

I realize these are pro-life sites, but of course that's to be expected with their testimonies. It doesn't make their quotes less accurate or their stories less compelling. Several of them have also written books. I have heard some of these former abortionists speak in person; they have amazing things to say.

I know a woman who aborted because she and her husband had a long-awaited trip to Hawaii planned and she wanted to look good in a bathing suit. She figured she could just get pregnant again later.

That's unbelievably cold. What kind of person does that?

I have great sympathy for women who find themselves pregnant and who are in absolutely no position to parent a child, but for the sake of vanity and/or convenience? Those women are so self-serving, they should NEVER have children.

That's unbelievably cold. What kind of person does that?

I have great sympathy for women who find themselves pregnant and who are in absolutely no position to parent a child, but for the sake of vanity and/or convenience? Those women are so self-serving, they should NEVER have children.

If you believe, as the abortion industry would like you to, that what the mother is carrying is not a child but just an undeveloped blob of indistinguishable tissue, it would actually be quite easy to do precisely what this woman did.

I think it is great and wonderful that some of you are advocates for people who choose not to perform abortions and who find abortion to be an abomination.

However I would sincerely like to see someone be an advocate for women who have experienced the ultimate trauma of being impregnanted and who are experiencing extreme anguish because of it. You seem to be making it sound as if women do not experience the kind of trauma that could cause their death or their loss of sanity if they were to be compelled to continue such pregnancies. Or at the very least you make it sound as if just going ahead and having the baby and giving it up for adoption is a simple and far superior solution to women's unwanted pregnancy problems.

That may be true in some cases and for some women. But it is absolutely not true for every woman who is in the position of experiencing a pregnancy that she cannot deal with.

Judgement calls like this, by extremely rabid anti-abortionists is why Roe v. Wade should stay the law of the land. There are so many cruel and visually abhorrent tools that anti-abortionists use to add insult and injury to many already physically and emotionally troubled women, that it is very repugnant to someone like me who is wholeheartedly pro-choice.

It is NOT for any of us to say who should or should not have an abortion unless we are making that decision simply for OURSELVES. I have no problem with you extending love and support and education to a woman who wants and needs your help. I do have a problem with your political/religious views being imposed on EVERYONE by virtue of laws forbidding women to make their own decisions with regard to their physical/emotional and medical health.

I think it is great and wonderful that some of you are advocates for people who choose not to perform abortions and who find abortion to be an abomination.

Well, you have to wonder why someone who is 100% in favor of abortion, to the point that they actually PERFORM them, goes the other way. These people have very interesting things to say and are worth hearing. There's a difference between having a personal opinion on the issue, an opinion that may change or evolve over time, and actually being in the trenches. The fact that these people who were leaders in the fight for the legalization of abortion and performed thousands and thousands of abortions now understand abortion to be the deliberate taking of a human life speaks volumes. They didn't just retire, just stop performing abortions; they changed from believing abortion is a right to believing and understanding abortion takes a human life.

BJ.....the subject of this thread is partial birth abortions - not abortion in general. I have a great deal of empathy for the woman who finds herself trapped by a pregnancy she did not plan and does not want to continue, but I see no reason that decision can't be made long before the only avenue available to her is the partial birth of a viable infant, who must then be killed with a pair of scissors to the brain in order to satisfy a law that would otherwise call for the death penalty. I just can't logically reconcile that.....carefully deliver just the head, kill the baby, then allow the rest of the body to slip out and call it a legal, medical procedure, as opposed to what it really is - the deliberate murder of a premature, human infant.

BJ.....the subject of this thread is partial birth abortions - not abortion in general. I have a great deal of empathy for the woman who finds herself trapped by a pregnancy she did not plan and does not want to continue, but I see no reason that decision can't be made long before the only avenue available to her is the partial birth of a viable infant, who must then be killed with a pair of scissors to the brain in order to satisfy a law that would otherwise call for the death penalty. I just can't logically reconcile that.....carefully deliver just the head, kill the baby, then allow the rest of the body to slip out and call it a legal, medical procedure, as opposed to what it really is - the deliberate murder of a premature, human infant.

I agree that the thread started out as being about partial birth abortion, but you have to admit many pro-lifer types are discussing abortion in general. I think that BJean was addressing those comments.

This is not directed to you Carlene, but in general I believe it clouds the issue, in the abortion debate in general, to make reference to the tiny percentage of women who might have an abortion to fit into a bikini. Yes, there are such examples, but that is not what this debate is about. When pro-life people focus on these types of unusual examples, they seem to be attempting to win their argument by claiming that pro-choice women, in general, are callous, frivolous, heartless baby killers. But that is simply not true. And when that approach is taken over and over again it diminished the pro-life position, and it detracts from the many good arguments pro-life people actually have.

The truth is, the vast majority of women and men on both sides of the question agree on 99% of the abortion issue. Virtually everyone agrees that abortion is a very unfortunate and often tragic event that should be avoided to the greatest extent possible. The disagreement comes in the final 1%, which is, if a woman finds herself in the position where abortion is the choice she feels that she must make, who gets to make that final decision? The woman herself along with her doctor? Or the state or federal legislature. This is the only real issue here. The issue is not about the few examples of women who get abortions to fit into a bikini.

The pro-life types on this thread can (and I'm sure will) continue to focus on the rare exceptions of women take actions that almost everyone would agree are improper. And that is too bad. It turns this debate into a freak show instead of serious discussion. If only pro-lifers could see how badly their argument is weakened by focusing on the freaks, instead of by focusing on the really good, solid, mainstream arguments that exist on the pro-life side. I disagree with the serious pro-life arguments, but I understand them and respect them. I do not respect the freak show.

I agree that the thread started out as being about partial birth abortion, but you have to admit many pro-lifer types are discussing abortion in general.

They are....but you have done the same, only in reverse. Your comments repeatedly refer to the fraction of abortions (presumably early abortions) performed so that a woman can "fit into a bikini". You ignored the issue at hand.....partial birth abortion.

They are....but you have done the same, only in reverse. Your comments repeatedly refer to the fraction of abortions (presumably early abortions) performed so that a woman can "fit into a bikini". You ignored the issue at hand.....partial birth abortion.

My own personal view on late term abortions is that they should not be allowed once the fetus is viable - BUT, there must be an exception where the life of the mother is at risk. I also believe that a late term abortion should be permitted where it can be demonstrated to a medical certainty that the fetus is in a condition where it faces a life of pain, or a life with no brain, or a terminal illness, or something of that nature.

I have not studied the issue, but my understanding of the current ruling is that there are no exceptions, regardless of the risk to the mother or the health of the fetus. If that is true I can't support that.